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	<title>Comments on: The Age of Iron: What Iron Man 2 is Really About</title>
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	<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/05/11/iron-man-mythology/</link>
	<description>Overthinking It subjects the popular culture to a level of scrutiny it probably doesn&#039;t deserve.</description>
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		<title>By: Maureen</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/05/11/iron-man-mythology/#comment-18462</link>
		<dc:creator>Maureen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 May 2010 03:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Remember when Stark and Stane are fighting and Stane starts talking about the Manhattan Project?  Something like &quot;What would the world have been like if the scientists thought it was too dangerous?&quot; 

My first thought was of the Szilard Petition, the attempt by some of the Manhattan Project scientists to first demonstrate the bomb to the Japanese high command and scare them into surrender before using the bomb against a civilian population. It was headed by Leo Szilard, the first person to come up with the idea of the nuclear chain reaction, and incidentally the man who drove Einstein to his meeting with Roosevelt which eventually lead to the Manhattan Project. After the Nazis were defeated, there was no longer the fear that the Germans would have the weapon first - instead, General Groves just wanted an excuse to whip out the weapon.

My second thought was, &quot;Hey, maybe scientists should have taken control over the nuclear arsenal&quot; - most of the top dogs on the Manhattan Project declined to take part in developing hydrogen weapons. 

So Stark&#039;s refusal to hand over the Iron Man at the beginning of the movie makes sense as his own version of Szilard&#039;s Petition - he&#039;s seen what the military&#039;s done with his weapons, and he doesn&#039;t want to be part of that.  But the events of the movie prove to him - and to us - that he can&#039;t handle this entire burden of responsibility that he&#039;s assumed. So he lets Rhodey take a suit.  Which means that the military has the suit after all.  But at least it&#039;s being held by General Eisenhower instead of General Groves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remember when Stark and Stane are fighting and Stane starts talking about the Manhattan Project?  Something like &#8220;What would the world have been like if the scientists thought it was too dangerous?&#8221; </p>
<p>My first thought was of the Szilard Petition, the attempt by some of the Manhattan Project scientists to first demonstrate the bomb to the Japanese high command and scare them into surrender before using the bomb against a civilian population. It was headed by Leo Szilard, the first person to come up with the idea of the nuclear chain reaction, and incidentally the man who drove Einstein to his meeting with Roosevelt which eventually lead to the Manhattan Project. After the Nazis were defeated, there was no longer the fear that the Germans would have the weapon first &#8211; instead, General Groves just wanted an excuse to whip out the weapon.</p>
<p>My second thought was, &#8220;Hey, maybe scientists should have taken control over the nuclear arsenal&#8221; &#8211; most of the top dogs on the Manhattan Project declined to take part in developing hydrogen weapons. </p>
<p>So Stark&#8217;s refusal to hand over the Iron Man at the beginning of the movie makes sense as his own version of Szilard&#8217;s Petition &#8211; he&#8217;s seen what the military&#8217;s done with his weapons, and he doesn&#8217;t want to be part of that.  But the events of the movie prove to him &#8211; and to us &#8211; that he can&#8217;t handle this entire burden of responsibility that he&#8217;s assumed. So he lets Rhodey take a suit.  Which means that the military has the suit after all.  But at least it&#8217;s being held by General Eisenhower instead of General Groves.</p>
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		<title>By: Sajanas</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/05/11/iron-man-mythology/#comment-18443</link>
		<dc:creator>Sajanas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 17:26:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=15079#comment-18443</guid>
		<description>@bregman 

Having some personal experience working with a lot of Russian scientists who emigrated in the mid 90s, I actually think the movie&#039;s depiction of Russia isn&#039;t as silly as you might think.  Moscow and St Petersburg are both very nice places now, being the center of most of Russian life currently, but the rest of the country suffers from a lot of Post Communism Syndrome... most towns are built around a single bloated, inefficient industry, and the economy is held up by oil/metal exports.  Russian science is in poor straights too, since all the professional people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s left for the West as soon as they could.  So all thats left are students and very old scientists in their 70s.  This is just the sort of environment, with lots of loose high tech equipment from failed businesses, an aging scientific establishment that would not grasp or fund ideas, and a fairly corrupt political culture, that could lead to someone like Vanko.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@bregman </p>
<p>Having some personal experience working with a lot of Russian scientists who emigrated in the mid 90s, I actually think the movie&#8217;s depiction of Russia isn&#8217;t as silly as you might think.  Moscow and St Petersburg are both very nice places now, being the center of most of Russian life currently, but the rest of the country suffers from a lot of Post Communism Syndrome&#8230; most towns are built around a single bloated, inefficient industry, and the economy is held up by oil/metal exports.  Russian science is in poor straights too, since all the professional people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s left for the West as soon as they could.  So all thats left are students and very old scientists in their 70s.  This is just the sort of environment, with lots of loose high tech equipment from failed businesses, an aging scientific establishment that would not grasp or fund ideas, and a fairly corrupt political culture, that could lead to someone like Vanko.</p>
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		<title>By: bregman</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/05/11/iron-man-mythology/#comment-18431</link>
		<dc:creator>bregman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 14:11:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=15079#comment-18431</guid>
		<description>@Mark:  Yeah, that was a problem with the film that really mired it in the past.  The whole thing seemed like a movie my Dad might make.  Up to and including the AC/DC soundtrack.  (Don&#039;t get me wrong, I heart my AC/DC, but can you really unselfconsciously feel that something badass is going on listening to that?  I mean...my Dad could...)

But yeah, strategic wonkers noticed pretty quickly after the dawn of the nuclear age that nukes wouldn&#039;t make conflict impossible as Nobel had hoped, but would just make unconventional warfare proliferate.  This is exactly what has since happened and we can be said to be well into the post-nuclear age.

The whole US v. Russia/nuclear thing is so 20th century.  Add to that the absurd cliches of Russian life depicted in the 1st act and the whole show seemed dated and irrelevant.  The Gates/Jobs/Hammer/Stark thing just seemed like a pathetic attempt to be current.

For some real juicy updating of Iron Man check out Matt Fraction&#039;s work on the comic series.  Stane&#039;s son builds an open-source repulsor suit out of Stark tech scavenged on the black market.  Corporate dinosaur Stark has to take on lithe nimble startup Stane Jr.  Good stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mark:  Yeah, that was a problem with the film that really mired it in the past.  The whole thing seemed like a movie my Dad might make.  Up to and including the AC/DC soundtrack.  (Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I heart my AC/DC, but can you really unselfconsciously feel that something badass is going on listening to that?  I mean&#8230;my Dad could&#8230;)</p>
<p>But yeah, strategic wonkers noticed pretty quickly after the dawn of the nuclear age that nukes wouldn&#8217;t make conflict impossible as Nobel had hoped, but would just make unconventional warfare proliferate.  This is exactly what has since happened and we can be said to be well into the post-nuclear age.</p>
<p>The whole US v. Russia/nuclear thing is so 20th century.  Add to that the absurd cliches of Russian life depicted in the 1st act and the whole show seemed dated and irrelevant.  The Gates/Jobs/Hammer/Stark thing just seemed like a pathetic attempt to be current.</p>
<p>For some real juicy updating of Iron Man check out Matt Fraction&#8217;s work on the comic series.  Stane&#8217;s son builds an open-source repulsor suit out of Stark tech scavenged on the black market.  Corporate dinosaur Stark has to take on lithe nimble startup Stane Jr.  Good stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/05/11/iron-man-mythology/#comment-18411</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 21:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=15079#comment-18411</guid>
		<description>Something that bothered me in the movie is when someone (I can&#039;t remember who) says that Iron Man is our new &quot;nuclear deterrent&quot;. If you continue the &quot;ages&quot; construct, we&#039;re still firmly in the nuclear age (unless you want to look more broadly and say we&#039;ve passed into the &quot;information age&quot; or the &quot;cyber age&quot; or whatever). Nuclear weapons pose a strategic threat to entire nations and an existential threat to the whole world, while Iron Man is a tactical weapon; they never even try to explain how he is enforcing his privatized world peace, and his contribution would be inconsequential in a full-blown nuclear exchange. Even in a large conventional conflict he would probably serve best as a fancy sniper, going after high-value, well-protected targets instead of trying to engage large military formations in the field.

To make the argument that Iron Man represents a transition to a new age, you&#039;d probably need to focus on the arc reactor technology and it&#039;s strategic use, instead of powered battle suits.

A more-compelling stinger along these lines may have been to show packages from Vanko containing small arc reactors and detailed plans being posthumously delivered to all the &quot;bad guys&quot; (Iran, North Korea, etc.) referenced at the beginning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something that bothered me in the movie is when someone (I can&#8217;t remember who) says that Iron Man is our new &#8220;nuclear deterrent&#8221;. If you continue the &#8220;ages&#8221; construct, we&#8217;re still firmly in the nuclear age (unless you want to look more broadly and say we&#8217;ve passed into the &#8220;information age&#8221; or the &#8220;cyber age&#8221; or whatever). Nuclear weapons pose a strategic threat to entire nations and an existential threat to the whole world, while Iron Man is a tactical weapon; they never even try to explain how he is enforcing his privatized world peace, and his contribution would be inconsequential in a full-blown nuclear exchange. Even in a large conventional conflict he would probably serve best as a fancy sniper, going after high-value, well-protected targets instead of trying to engage large military formations in the field.</p>
<p>To make the argument that Iron Man represents a transition to a new age, you&#8217;d probably need to focus on the arc reactor technology and it&#8217;s strategic use, instead of powered battle suits.</p>
<p>A more-compelling stinger along these lines may have been to show packages from Vanko containing small arc reactors and detailed plans being posthumously delivered to all the &#8220;bad guys&#8221; (Iran, North Korea, etc.) referenced at the beginning.</p>
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		<title>By: perich</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/05/11/iron-man-mythology/#comment-18406</link>
		<dc:creator>perich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 18:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=15079#comment-18406</guid>
		<description>Yenzo: We encourage you to try anyway!  Check out our &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.overthinkingit.com/submissions/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;submission guidelines&lt;/a&gt;, then hit us up at editor@overthinkingit.com.  We love guest writers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yenzo: We encourage you to try anyway!  Check out our <a href="http://www.overthinkingit.com/submissions/" rel="nofollow">submission guidelines</a>, then hit us up at <a href="mailto:editor@overthinkingit.com">editor@overthinkingit.com</a>.  We love guest writers.</p>
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		<title>By: Yenzo</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/05/11/iron-man-mythology/#comment-18388</link>
		<dc:creator>Yenzo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 09:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=15079#comment-18388</guid>
		<description>Thank you for a great article. This reminds me of how I watched How To Train Your Dragon only recently and kinda saw it as a parable about the transition from a passive submission to nature towards a modern scientific approach. If I was able to write an interesting article about it, I think it would feel similar to this one right here. If you&#039;ve seen HTTYD and you&#039;d like to discuss it, I&#039;m right here for ya.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for a great article. This reminds me of how I watched How To Train Your Dragon only recently and kinda saw it as a parable about the transition from a passive submission to nature towards a modern scientific approach. If I was able to write an interesting article about it, I think it would feel similar to this one right here. If you&#8217;ve seen HTTYD and you&#8217;d like to discuss it, I&#8217;m right here for ya.</p>
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		<title>By: Sajanas</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/05/11/iron-man-mythology/#comment-18364</link>
		<dc:creator>Sajanas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 16:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It was good to see the proliferation of technology at the fore of the movie.  Too often, movies work from the Great Man philosophy of science, where if you take out an important inventor, or change his mind, some critical piece of technology is just gone, a la Terminator 2, where getting rid of Dyson and The Chip theoretically eliminates Skynet.  Of course, that seems to derive from looking at the history of 18th and 19th century science.  The big names dominate there, like Newton, Einstein, Darwin, Pasteur.  You still see that reflected today... usually only one scientist predicts the event, only one maverick knows whats really out there.  But thats not the way modern science works... everyone builds off of existing science, and almost no one does it in a vacuum.  When Pasteur developed Germ Theory, he must have been one of a few dozen scientists.  Now he&#039;d be one of tens of thousands.  Even knowing Tony Stark had a portable energy plant, laser hands, and armor that could shrug off a missile tells us a lot about what is possible that we don&#039;t know.  I think that was my biggest problem with Tony, it wasn&#039;t that he wasn&#039;t awesome, it was just that he was naive about his own advanced ability.  But I suppose if you spend all your time with bimbos, you forget that their are other scientists out their with their own boxes of scraps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was good to see the proliferation of technology at the fore of the movie.  Too often, movies work from the Great Man philosophy of science, where if you take out an important inventor, or change his mind, some critical piece of technology is just gone, a la Terminator 2, where getting rid of Dyson and The Chip theoretically eliminates Skynet.  Of course, that seems to derive from looking at the history of 18th and 19th century science.  The big names dominate there, like Newton, Einstein, Darwin, Pasteur.  You still see that reflected today&#8230; usually only one scientist predicts the event, only one maverick knows whats really out there.  But thats not the way modern science works&#8230; everyone builds off of existing science, and almost no one does it in a vacuum.  When Pasteur developed Germ Theory, he must have been one of a few dozen scientists.  Now he&#8217;d be one of tens of thousands.  Even knowing Tony Stark had a portable energy plant, laser hands, and armor that could shrug off a missile tells us a lot about what is possible that we don&#8217;t know.  I think that was my biggest problem with Tony, it wasn&#8217;t that he wasn&#8217;t awesome, it was just that he was naive about his own advanced ability.  But I suppose if you spend all your time with bimbos, you forget that their are other scientists out their with their own boxes of scraps.</p>
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		<title>By: mcneil</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/05/11/iron-man-mythology/#comment-18363</link>
		<dc:creator>mcneil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 16:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=15079#comment-18363</guid>
		<description>Really?  Vibranium?  He&#039;s a dirty, dirty man.

One thing that I forgot to work into this piece is the concept of a singularity, a moment when culture has changed so much that the world and its technology become incomprehensible to people who came before.  It seems that in Iron Man 2, Tony Stark is that singularity.  Both in terms of the technology and the fact that he&#039;s the first public superhero, he seems to have completely changed the game.

The example at http://io9.com/5534848/what-is-the-singularity-and-will-you-live-to-see-it is &quot;imagine explaining the internet to somebody living in the year 1200. Your frames of reference would be so different that it would be almost impossible to convey how the internet works, let alone what it means to our society.&quot;  

Frankly, I don&#039;t believe that a singularity can exist. The men who smelted bronze would have understood iron.  My grandfather grew up in a town without electricity, but understood the internet before he passed. His frame of reference wouldn&#039;t have been too different than that of his mother, which wasn&#039;t that different from that of her mother, etc...   

The technology may change quickly, but human evolution is a slow process.  We interact with the internet through sight, sound, touch, and, soon god willing, smell and taste.  We created language to be able to convey and transmit the things we see, hear, feel and smell.  We did a good job of it, and there&#039;s nothing that does or can appeal to one of those senses that can&#039;t be conveyed in speech.  

Still, an interesting concept.  Thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really?  Vibranium?  He&#8217;s a dirty, dirty man.</p>
<p>One thing that I forgot to work into this piece is the concept of a singularity, a moment when culture has changed so much that the world and its technology become incomprehensible to people who came before.  It seems that in Iron Man 2, Tony Stark is that singularity.  Both in terms of the technology and the fact that he&#8217;s the first public superhero, he seems to have completely changed the game.</p>
<p>The example at <a href="http://io9.com/5534848/what-is-the-singularity-and-will-you-live-to-see-it" rel="nofollow">http://io9.com/5534848/what-is-the-singularity-and-will-you-live-to-see-it</a> is &#8220;imagine explaining the internet to somebody living in the year 1200. Your frames of reference would be so different that it would be almost impossible to convey how the internet works, let alone what it means to our society.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Frankly, I don&#8217;t believe that a singularity can exist. The men who smelted bronze would have understood iron.  My grandfather grew up in a town without electricity, but understood the internet before he passed. His frame of reference wouldn&#8217;t have been too different than that of his mother, which wasn&#8217;t that different from that of her mother, etc&#8230;   </p>
<p>The technology may change quickly, but human evolution is a slow process.  We interact with the internet through sight, sound, touch, and, soon god willing, smell and taste.  We created language to be able to convey and transmit the things we see, hear, feel and smell.  We did a good job of it, and there&#8217;s nothing that does or can appeal to one of those senses that can&#8217;t be conveyed in speech.  </p>
<p>Still, an interesting concept.  Thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/05/11/iron-man-mythology/#comment-18357</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 13:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=15079#comment-18357</guid>
		<description>I like the joke, but just to clarify: Stark invents/discovers/creates/whatever Vibranium in the film.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the joke, but just to clarify: Stark invents/discovers/creates/whatever Vibranium in the film.</p>
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