Comments on: The Overthinking Lost Open Thread: “Dr. Linus” http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/10/lost-open-thread-dr-linus/ Overthinking It subjects the popular culture to a level of scrutiny it probably doesn't deserve. Tue, 14 Feb 2012 00:05:13 +0000 hourly 1 By: jimp http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/10/lost-open-thread-dr-linus/#comment-15866 jimp Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:35:26 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13725#comment-15866 I think you've nailed it dock. Also I've realized that the problem with these snarks at lazy writing and the merits or otherwise of narrative-about-turns are irrelevant until the entirety story has been broadcast, consumed and digested. Only then will we be able to say with any certainty whether the writing was lazy. Or otherwise. Having had two seasons of some of the least lazy writing in a television show to date (give or take the odd major deus ex machina that had to be grudgingly accepted) perhaps we've been spoilt. Although I'm pretty confident that the pop-up cameos are mere gimmickry and should really not be overthought. I think you’ve nailed it dock.

Also I’ve realized that the problem with these snarks at lazy writing and the merits or otherwise of narrative-about-turns are irrelevant until the entirety story has been broadcast, consumed and digested. Only then will we be able to say with any certainty whether the writing was lazy. Or otherwise. Having had two seasons of some of the least lazy writing in a television show to date (give or take the odd major deus ex machina that had to be grudgingly accepted) perhaps we’ve been spoilt.

Although I’m pretty confident that the pop-up cameos are mere gimmickry and should really not be overthought.

]]> By: dock http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/10/lost-open-thread-dr-linus/#comment-15859 dock Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:45:31 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13725#comment-15859 @pfranks- I kind of thought that as well, I think that episode would have served more purpose showing us he is universally a scumbag. However, they also showed that he and his father had a better relationship so maybe in alt-world having never been abused like he was on the island (and never "losing his innocence" in the life pool-whatever that was all about) that the character Ben is actually a decent guy when push comes to shove. He never stood a chance at being good having been tortured all his life by his father and having to deal w/ the reprocussions of being shot by an Iraqi torturer that he thought was his friend and then brought back to life by a gang of island dwelling militants. Under different cicumstances this evil mass-murderer was actually just a bitter wimp with a heart....(personally I can see this both ways- redeeming yet also kinda corny) @pfranks- I kind of thought that as well, I think that episode would have served more purpose showing us he is universally a scumbag. However, they also showed that he and his father had a better relationship so maybe in alt-world having never been abused like he was on the island (and never “losing his innocence” in the life pool-whatever that was all about) that the character Ben is actually a decent guy when push comes to shove. He never stood a chance at being good having been tortured all his life by his father and having to deal w/ the reprocussions of being shot by an Iraqi torturer that he thought was his friend and then brought back to life by a gang of island dwelling militants. Under different cicumstances this evil mass-murderer was actually just a bitter wimp with a heart….(personally I can see this both ways- redeeming yet also kinda corny)

]]> By: pFranks http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/10/lost-open-thread-dr-linus/#comment-15851 pFranks Sat, 13 Mar 2010 07:33:38 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13725#comment-15851 @kevin yes, exactly. if i were one of the showrunners i'd have the nuke a season before and give sliding-doors-earth plenty of time to really express itself and show us some cool what-if scenarios before the inevitable showdown, Crisis-on-Infinite-Earths style. I seriously LOVE alt-reality stories, but this just seems like they saying "we just have a dozen eps left, lest get as much cameos and references as we can, even if they don't really make much sense" also, i don't have any problem with Alex without accent. It would be much worse if they'd shown her living in america her entire life and still having an accent. What bothered me is that we have this character that grew up to be how she is just because the island was there, and then, that charater living in an island-free universe, growing up to be more or less the same person. I mean, i fully understand the meta-textual reason to do this, but i tend to apreciate some in-universe sense along with my meta-textual meaning. So, discarding lazy writing, are we supposed to think that after 5 years being told that the island is the MOST.SPECIAL.PLACE.EVER, it turns out that's a lie, thst the island is just an island and the world would be the same with and without it, because the universe auto corrects, whatever that means (this would be both the coolest and the worst thing ever). Or that the island is SUCH.AN.SPECIAL.PLACE, it affects every other universe and forces them to be island-universe like, and not only up until the moment of split, but, presumably, for all eternity, bringing any people that will ever land there together to some other random place, like LA. Either way, suspension of disbelief -> blown. Also, in Universe-A, Ben treats her as a daugther for all her life, and then some mercenaries tell him "get out of the house or we'll shot her in the face", and he tells them "Nu-uh, i'm not getting out, she is not my daughter, i don't love her, and she is just a pawn in my own game of Risk", and they shot her in the face. In Universe-B Ben is her history teacher in a public high school, so he has known her for as much as a couple years, just like probably about a couple hundred kids more. Then one day he tries to blackmail the principal because he didn't want to , and the principal says "if you do that i won't write her a recommendation letter, so this second generation inmigrant won't get an Ivy League education MWA-HA-HA!!", and ben says "uh, ok, nevermind then", and the principal writes a GREAT letter which will probably make her life easy forever. I understand we are supposed to think that this is some kind of redeeming stuff, that he is now a nice guy, able to sacrifice things for her. Only it isn't. He is just being a dick with the poor principal, and when he faces the first evil consequence of being a dick he just pussies out and gives up on his plans. Again, meta-textually somewhat understandable, in-universe senseless. They seem to be trying to show us how the universe is the same because he is still the manipulative sociopathic asshole we love, and then how it is a completely different universe because he is unable to get what he wants because he just cares to much about someone he somewhat appreciates, yet barely knows. And, at least for me, that doesn't work. @kevin yes, exactly. if i were one of the showrunners i’d have the nuke a season before and give sliding-doors-earth plenty of time to really express itself and show us some cool what-if scenarios before the inevitable showdown, Crisis-on-Infinite-Earths style. I seriously LOVE alt-reality stories, but this just seems like they saying “we just have a dozen eps left, lest get as much cameos and references as we can, even if they don’t really make much sense”
also, i don’t have any problem with Alex without accent. It would be much worse if they’d shown her living in america her entire life and still having an accent. What bothered me is that we have this character that grew up to be how she is just because the island was there, and then, that charater living in an island-free universe, growing up to be more or less the same person. I mean, i fully understand the meta-textual reason to do this, but i tend to apreciate some in-universe sense along with my meta-textual meaning.
So, discarding lazy writing, are we supposed to think that after 5 years being told that the island is the MOST.SPECIAL.PLACE.EVER, it turns out that’s a lie, thst the island is just an island and the world would be the same with and without it, because the universe auto corrects, whatever that means (this would be both the coolest and the worst thing ever). Or that the island is SUCH.AN.SPECIAL.PLACE, it affects every other universe and forces them to be island-universe like, and not only up until the moment of split, but, presumably, for all eternity, bringing any people that will ever land there together to some other random place, like LA. Either way, suspension of disbelief -> blown.

Also, in Universe-A, Ben treats her as a daugther for all her life, and then some mercenaries tell him “get out of the house or we’ll shot her in the face”, and he tells them “Nu-uh, i’m not getting out, she is not my daughter, i don’t love her, and she is just a pawn in my own game of Risk”, and they shot her in the face.
In Universe-B Ben is her history teacher in a public high school, so he has known her for as much as a couple years, just like probably about a couple hundred kids more. Then one day he tries to blackmail the principal because he didn’t want to , and the principal says “if you do that i won’t write her a recommendation letter, so this second generation inmigrant won’t get an Ivy League education MWA-HA-HA!!”, and ben says “uh, ok, nevermind then”, and the principal writes a GREAT letter which will probably make her life easy forever.
I understand we are supposed to think that this is some kind of redeeming stuff, that he is now a nice guy, able to sacrifice things for her. Only it isn’t. He is just being a dick with the poor principal, and when he faces the first evil consequence of being a dick he just pussies out and gives up on his plans. Again, meta-textually somewhat understandable, in-universe senseless. They seem to be trying to show us how the universe is the same because he is still the manipulative sociopathic asshole we love, and then how it is a completely different universe because he is unable to get what he wants because he just cares to much about someone he somewhat appreciates, yet barely knows. And, at least for me, that doesn’t work.

]]> By: Gab http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/10/lost-open-thread-dr-linus/#comment-15845 Gab Sat, 13 Mar 2010 01:18:28 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13725#comment-15845 Well-said, Kevin. Well-said, Kevin.

]]> By: Kevin http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/10/lost-open-thread-dr-linus/#comment-15835 Kevin Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:45:17 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13725#comment-15835 My misgivings about Timeline B and the "cameos" -- and really, this is incredibly minor, but I think other viewers are thinking it -- probably has to do with the fact that the history of Timeline A (the one they spent five years explaining and filling in) no longer really applies, besides the broad strokes. Because we can't spend much time filling in the blanks in Timeline B, we just have to accept things on faith. For example, we aren't going to get a Dogen flashback (sniff) that explains why this successful businessman left Osaka for America... we aren't going to see Danielle move to Los Angeles from France... all we can do is roll with it and assume it is "fate" drawing these characters together. Where this REALLY breaks down for me is in the timing. I'm totally fine with the main characters being fated to meet; I'll even accept that the most minor of characters are fated (like Arzt, who was never a favorite character, or even relevant at all to the show). But why now? Why, all of a sudden, is Dogen meeting Jack in alt-2004 when they aren't supposed to meet until 2007? For a simple answer, I think: because it's "cool" to see Jack and Dogen meeting under different circumstances. Keamy has to meet Sayid in alt-2004 instead of a few years later... because the writers needed a bad guy and thought he'd be great to bring back. Most importantly, I presume they'll only spend a couple of weeks in alt-2004 before "whatever happens, happens" and the different between universes is resolved. This is the final season of the show -- obviously we aren't going to follow these characters for any length of time. (I smell spin-off!) But because all of these characters from five seasons' time are being shoe-horned into what appears to be a few weeks in alt-2004 at the most... it all feels a little coincidental. But maybe that's not important. I've been loving the sideways stories so far... but for seeing the main characters. Too many cameos and it starts to get cute. My misgivings about Timeline B and the “cameos” — and really, this is incredibly minor, but I think other viewers are thinking it — probably has to do with the fact that the history of Timeline A (the one they spent five years explaining and filling in) no longer really applies, besides the broad strokes. Because we can’t spend much time filling in the blanks in Timeline B, we just have to accept things on faith. For example, we aren’t going to get a Dogen flashback (sniff) that explains why this successful businessman left Osaka for America… we aren’t going to see Danielle move to Los Angeles from France… all we can do is roll with it and assume it is “fate” drawing these characters together.

Where this REALLY breaks down for me is in the timing. I’m totally fine with the main characters being fated to meet; I’ll even accept that the most minor of characters are fated (like Arzt, who was never a favorite character, or even relevant at all to the show). But why now? Why, all of a sudden, is Dogen meeting Jack in alt-2004 when they aren’t supposed to meet until 2007? For a simple answer, I think: because it’s “cool” to see Jack and Dogen meeting under different circumstances. Keamy has to meet Sayid in alt-2004 instead of a few years later… because the writers needed a bad guy and thought he’d be great to bring back.

Most importantly, I presume they’ll only spend a couple of weeks in alt-2004 before “whatever happens, happens” and the different between universes is resolved. This is the final season of the show — obviously we aren’t going to follow these characters for any length of time. (I smell spin-off!) But because all of these characters from five seasons’ time are being shoe-horned into what appears to be a few weeks in alt-2004 at the most… it all feels a little coincidental.

But maybe that’s not important. I’ve been loving the sideways stories so far… but for seeing the main characters. Too many cameos and it starts to get cute.

]]> By: anaedaAcalley http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/10/lost-open-thread-dr-linus/#comment-15833 anaedaAcalley Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:13:22 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13725#comment-15833 Rad on the Web, my favorite podcats gave out these coupons for shoes at eastbay and footlocker. The coupons work. Eastbay coupon [b]AFROTW15 for 15%[/b] off everything, if the order is over $75 you can use [b]AFROTW20 for 20%[/b] off. They only had one for footlocker AFROTWFL for 15%. anyone have a zappos coupon for their new custom shoes? Rad on the Web, my favorite podcats gave out these coupons for shoes at eastbay and footlocker. The coupons work.

Eastbay coupon [b]AFROTW15 for 15%[/b] off everything, if the order is over $75 you can use [b]AFROTW20 for 20%[/b] off. They only had one for footlocker AFROTWFL for 15%.

anyone have a zappos coupon for their new custom shoes?

]]> By: TheMagician http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/10/lost-open-thread-dr-linus/#comment-15825 TheMagician Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:42:19 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13725#comment-15825 @specialagentdalecooper: Regarding the second point you made: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation And also: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Character_connections (not up to date) @specialagentdalecooper: Regarding the second point you made: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation

And also: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Character_connections (not up to date)

]]> By: Tom P http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/10/lost-open-thread-dr-linus/#comment-15815 Tom P Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:38:54 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13725#comment-15815 @Kevin: <i>they were caught in a storm and washed up on the island by chance *or Jacob). Wouldn’t the storm still have happened and the team would have died at sea, since there was no island for them to land on? </i> Rousseau and Brennan were both on the list of candidates. So, it's likely that they were brought to the island by circumstances Jacob set in motion. No island, probably no expedition or no storm. How that translates to Danielle emigrating to the US or why she's no longer with Daniel, who knows. @Kevin: they were caught in a storm and washed up on the island by chance *or Jacob). Wouldn’t the storm still have happened and the team would have died at sea, since there was no island for them to land on?

Rousseau and Brennan were both on the list of candidates. So, it’s likely that they were brought to the island by circumstances Jacob set in motion. No island, probably no expedition or no storm.

How that translates to Danielle emigrating to the US or why she’s no longer with Daniel, who knows.

]]> By: Bob http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/10/lost-open-thread-dr-linus/#comment-15799 Bob Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:52:17 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13725#comment-15799 @Kevin - Its funny that I fully bought Keamy, Dogen and Ethan but had a momentary rise of the eyebrow at Alex. Like I mentioned before, I bought it but it took me out for a moment. But as for the storm and the french team - jury is still out on it. 1) We still have no proof that the island sank in 1977. I haven't read the latest Doc Jensen on EW.com, but he's mentioned that its only been implicitly understood it sank in 1977 and LOST turns implicit stuff on its side a lot. And since its more and more obvious Doc is an ABC mole, it carries a lot of weight. 2) If the island did indeed disappear in 1977, we don't know how it disappearing effected everything else in the rest of the world. We know nothing about the French team - what if Widmore hired them to go on an expedition hoping they found the island. Without a Widmore, no expedition hence no storm and no island. Just a thought - probably a dumb one too. But I love how this show can be overthought. @Kevin – Its funny that I fully bought Keamy, Dogen and Ethan but had a momentary rise of the eyebrow at Alex. Like I mentioned before, I bought it but it took me out for a moment. But as for the storm and the french team – jury is still out on it.

1) We still have no proof that the island sank in 1977. I haven’t read the latest Doc Jensen on EW.com, but he’s mentioned that its only been implicitly understood it sank in 1977 and LOST turns implicit stuff on its side a lot. And since its more and more obvious Doc is an ABC mole, it carries a lot of weight.

2) If the island did indeed disappear in 1977, we don’t know how it disappearing effected everything else in the rest of the world. We know nothing about the French team – what if Widmore hired them to go on an expedition hoping they found the island. Without a Widmore, no expedition hence no storm and no island. Just a thought – probably a dumb one too. But I love how this show can be overthought.

]]> By: Bob http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/10/lost-open-thread-dr-linus/#comment-15797 Bob Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:42:12 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13725#comment-15797 I was just catching up on everyone's comments here and it hit me. I've been wondering why I've been touting the 'obviously bad' Lockelganger is actually good despite all evidence to the contrary can be backtracked to an earlier post on this website by Matthew Belinke: Star Wars, The Clone Wars! (Seen Here: http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/01/28/clone-wars-irony/) My mind was so over-thought from the dramatic irony of the good guys fighting for evil against evil fighting for evil, I found it in LOST. Where George Lucas had the undertones of the paradox, he was not a strong enough of a writer to pay off this complex plot. LOST is an already complex plot, I was hoping to have Jack, Hurley, et al carry the Jacob banner against Sayid, Sawyer and company with the Lockelganer gang but for the results not mean anything. Then I can point to Star Wars and say "Lucas did it!". But alas, I do not believe this to be true - still hope for it though. Nerd out. @Brian Williams - loved the Officer and Gentleman nod! Good call. @dock - GREAT call with the fences! I was just catching up on everyone’s comments here and it hit me. I’ve been wondering why I’ve been touting the ‘obviously bad’ Lockelganger is actually good despite all evidence to the contrary can be backtracked to an earlier post on this website by Matthew Belinke:

Star Wars, The Clone Wars!

(Seen Here: http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/01/28/clone-wars-irony/)

My mind was so over-thought from the dramatic irony of the good guys fighting for evil against evil fighting for evil, I found it in LOST. Where George Lucas had the undertones of the paradox, he was not a strong enough of a writer to pay off this complex plot. LOST is an already complex plot, I was hoping to have Jack, Hurley, et al carry the Jacob banner against Sayid, Sawyer and company with the Lockelganer gang but for the results not mean anything. Then I can point to Star Wars and say “Lucas did it!”. But alas, I do not believe this to be true – still hope for it though.

Nerd out.

@Brian Williams – loved the Officer and Gentleman nod! Good call.

@dock – GREAT call with the fences!

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