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	<title>Comments on: The Overthinking Lost Open Thread &#8211; &#8220;Sundown&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/03/lost-open-thread-sundown/</link>
	<description>Overthinking It subjects the popular culture to a level of scrutiny it probably doesn&#039;t deserve.</description>
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		<title>By: Pavlos</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/03/lost-open-thread-sundown/#comment-15683</link>
		<dc:creator>Pavlos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 13:53:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13645#comment-15683</guid>
		<description>@Greg: I think you need to re watch the Incident, regarding who&#039;s death was more recent and literally in Sayid&#039;s arms. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Greg: I think you need to re watch the Incident, regarding who&#8217;s death was more recent and literally in Sayid&#8217;s arms. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Jam</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/03/lost-open-thread-sundown/#comment-15666</link>
		<dc:creator>Jam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 19:02:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13645#comment-15666</guid>
		<description>This episode didn&#039;t work for me because the main plot (Sayid saying that he&#039;s good while doing evil things) didn&#039;t come together.   Were we suppose to believe that Smoky is 100% evil incarnate now?  He still seems very reasonable.  It still makes more sense to be on his side rather than dead Jacob&#039;s. Jacob basically lures Jack and Hurley, and only Jack and Hurley out of the temple with empty promises of answers. Smokey at least is honest about it, saying come with me or die. There&#039;s a actual choice involved, whereas Jacob doesn&#039;t even offer Jack or Hurley a choice.
And when lost people are vague as to why something is bad &quot;oooo he&#039;ll kill us all&quot;, or &quot;keep pushing the button or the something bad (TM) will happen,&quot; it usually means that the character has no idea what&#039;s going on.
So I&#039;m saying I don&#039;t think what sayid did at the end was evil at all.  He killed something that tried to kill him twice, and just because Smokey offers something for the killing doesn&#039;t make him evil.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This episode didn&#8217;t work for me because the main plot (Sayid saying that he&#8217;s good while doing evil things) didn&#8217;t come together.   Were we suppose to believe that Smoky is 100% evil incarnate now?  He still seems very reasonable.  It still makes more sense to be on his side rather than dead Jacob&#8217;s. Jacob basically lures Jack and Hurley, and only Jack and Hurley out of the temple with empty promises of answers. Smokey at least is honest about it, saying come with me or die. There&#8217;s a actual choice involved, whereas Jacob doesn&#8217;t even offer Jack or Hurley a choice.<br />
And when lost people are vague as to why something is bad &#8220;oooo he&#8217;ll kill us all&#8221;, or &#8220;keep pushing the button or the something bad (TM) will happen,&#8221; it usually means that the character has no idea what&#8217;s going on.<br />
So I&#8217;m saying I don&#8217;t think what sayid did at the end was evil at all.  He killed something that tried to kill him twice, and just because Smokey offers something for the killing doesn&#8217;t make him evil.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/03/lost-open-thread-sundown/#comment-15665</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 18:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13645#comment-15665</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s something that hasn&#039;t been mentioned yet. When Smokey asked Sayid what if he could offer him anything he wanted, he said the only thing he wanted died in his arms. I immediately thought of Shannon, not Nadia. It was Shannon who most recently and literally died in his arms, if you don&#039;t count the whole return to the real world and find out Nadia was killed plot line.

1) I didn&#039;t notice an accent change either, but Sayid&#039;s character&#039;s turn did catch me by surprise too. And I&#039;m still holding out that he&#039;ll take control in the end. That&#039;s what this show is all about anyway, making choices. Whether he&#039;ll turn against Smokey or just turn against himself as some of you have pointed out, I don&#039;t know. If he does take his own life, it will be one of the most emotional episodes yet and probably near or in the end.

The whole Ben spoiler trailer at the end of last weeks episode really made me mad. I feel like in previous seasons they&#039;ve done a good job of making trailers that were ambiguous and seductive. This season, they&#039;re all over the place. I&#039;m also hoping he doesn&#039;t die till the end. But I think Ben&#039;s character is just waiting to die. He&#039;s like a more advanced case of Sayid and Claire. And by now, he&#039;s fully aware of what he deserves and the consequences of the choices he made. So maybe it&#039;s not too soon? Or maybe he can have redemption, but I&#039;m willing to venture that the redemption will be in his death.

Other questions: yeah where&#039;s the All the Good (or is it Bad?) Girls have Mommy Issues episode? It would be interesting to follow the development of mothers in this show. I do feel like Kate is gonna be the ace. I mean, why else would she still be around. Hopefully then, we&#039;ll see more of her.

I&#039;ve been thinking about what Jacob said when he said someone is coming to the island and certain scenes in the flash sideways. And I&#039;m thinking there&#039;s gonna be some crossover. There already seems to be inklings that candidates, at least Jack, is noticing things about himself that seem off. Specifically, I&#039;m talking about the scene when we asks his mother when he got his appendix out. Of course she says six, but the scar seems fresh from 3 years on the island to my untrained medical eye. Who do you think is coming? There&#039;s reason to believe in this alternate timeline maybe the oceanic folk don&#039;t make it there, but what&#039;s stopping say Jack&#039;s son or Helen and other people the Oceanic folks love from somehow appearing. Maybe that&#039;s far-fetched, in all likelihood, it&#039;ll probably be the candidates who somehow make it back. But that might be something to overthink or just regular think about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s something that hasn&#8217;t been mentioned yet. When Smokey asked Sayid what if he could offer him anything he wanted, he said the only thing he wanted died in his arms. I immediately thought of Shannon, not Nadia. It was Shannon who most recently and literally died in his arms, if you don&#8217;t count the whole return to the real world and find out Nadia was killed plot line.</p>
<p>1) I didn&#8217;t notice an accent change either, but Sayid&#8217;s character&#8217;s turn did catch me by surprise too. And I&#8217;m still holding out that he&#8217;ll take control in the end. That&#8217;s what this show is all about anyway, making choices. Whether he&#8217;ll turn against Smokey or just turn against himself as some of you have pointed out, I don&#8217;t know. If he does take his own life, it will be one of the most emotional episodes yet and probably near or in the end.</p>
<p>The whole Ben spoiler trailer at the end of last weeks episode really made me mad. I feel like in previous seasons they&#8217;ve done a good job of making trailers that were ambiguous and seductive. This season, they&#8217;re all over the place. I&#8217;m also hoping he doesn&#8217;t die till the end. But I think Ben&#8217;s character is just waiting to die. He&#8217;s like a more advanced case of Sayid and Claire. And by now, he&#8217;s fully aware of what he deserves and the consequences of the choices he made. So maybe it&#8217;s not too soon? Or maybe he can have redemption, but I&#8217;m willing to venture that the redemption will be in his death.</p>
<p>Other questions: yeah where&#8217;s the All the Good (or is it Bad?) Girls have Mommy Issues episode? It would be interesting to follow the development of mothers in this show. I do feel like Kate is gonna be the ace. I mean, why else would she still be around. Hopefully then, we&#8217;ll see more of her.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking about what Jacob said when he said someone is coming to the island and certain scenes in the flash sideways. And I&#8217;m thinking there&#8217;s gonna be some crossover. There already seems to be inklings that candidates, at least Jack, is noticing things about himself that seem off. Specifically, I&#8217;m talking about the scene when we asks his mother when he got his appendix out. Of course she says six, but the scar seems fresh from 3 years on the island to my untrained medical eye. Who do you think is coming? There&#8217;s reason to believe in this alternate timeline maybe the oceanic folk don&#8217;t make it there, but what&#8217;s stopping say Jack&#8217;s son or Helen and other people the Oceanic folks love from somehow appearing. Maybe that&#8217;s far-fetched, in all likelihood, it&#8217;ll probably be the candidates who somehow make it back. But that might be something to overthink or just regular think about.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/03/lost-open-thread-sundown/#comment-15600</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 16:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13645#comment-15600</guid>
		<description>@Gab: Well, it&#039;s interesting -- now that you pose the question, I&#039;m not sure.  Let me go through my thinking and come up with an answer.

Based on typical movie &amp; TV development, it is the &quot;hero&quot; that has to defeat the &quot;villain.&quot;  In Lost&#039;s case: I&#039;m not so sure Smokey is pure evil; while he must be &quot;beaten&quot; at the end, I think he and Jacob have so much power that they are neither good nor bad -- they are embodiments of natural forces that have been around for centuries.  Thus, Jacob is the only one who can keep Smokey in chec, AND vice versa; it&#039;s not like Jack will be the big &quot;hero&quot; who has a climactic duel with him where he can ulimately kill him and make everything &quot;right&quot; again.  They are yin and yang, alpha and omega.

I think it&#039;s the same notion that relates to the writers &quot;answering the questions,&quot; and how they are ONLY answering questions that are important to the characters, not that necessarily fill in all the plot gaps.  Lost isn&#039;t a show about Jacob and Smokey fighting each other -- they haven&#039;t even been around as characters for more than 10 episodes!  Instead, it&#039;s about the *characters*... and I think the whole Jacob vs. Smokey goings-on are just one big MacGuffin to help the characters resolve all of their issues and evolve as people.  THAT is the grand story of Lost, and while the island stuff drives the action... it&#039;s only as a means of showing how these people learn to live in the world around them.

So how is that for a non-answer? :-)

Getting back to your question, I think I listed those three characters both in terms of their importance to the ending AND the likelihood they&#039;ll be key to resolving the Jacob-Smokey drama -- they go hand in hand.  Jack is the guy with the most screen time and every couple of episodes seem to be about him; he also has the most dramatized, obvious personal issue to resolve.  Hurley can talk to the dead (but in a literal way that Miles can&#039;t) and seems to be &quot;special&quot; in a way the other characters are not; however, he seems to have resolved his issues for the most part, so I can&#039;t imagine any grand denouement about him.  And Desmond is &quot;special&quot; because of his time-travel ability, and, well, because Eloise SAID he was... but he&#039;s barely had screen time in S5 and 6, so I can&#039;t imagine he&#039;s going to tie all the plot threads together at the end.

So yes, I think those three will have important roles to play in the resolution... in that order.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Gab: Well, it&#8217;s interesting &#8212; now that you pose the question, I&#8217;m not sure.  Let me go through my thinking and come up with an answer.</p>
<p>Based on typical movie &amp; TV development, it is the &#8220;hero&#8221; that has to defeat the &#8220;villain.&#8221;  In Lost&#8217;s case: I&#8217;m not so sure Smokey is pure evil; while he must be &#8220;beaten&#8221; at the end, I think he and Jacob have so much power that they are neither good nor bad &#8212; they are embodiments of natural forces that have been around for centuries.  Thus, Jacob is the only one who can keep Smokey in chec, AND vice versa; it&#8217;s not like Jack will be the big &#8220;hero&#8221; who has a climactic duel with him where he can ulimately kill him and make everything &#8220;right&#8221; again.  They are yin and yang, alpha and omega.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s the same notion that relates to the writers &#8220;answering the questions,&#8221; and how they are ONLY answering questions that are important to the characters, not that necessarily fill in all the plot gaps.  Lost isn&#8217;t a show about Jacob and Smokey fighting each other &#8212; they haven&#8217;t even been around as characters for more than 10 episodes!  Instead, it&#8217;s about the *characters*&#8230; and I think the whole Jacob vs. Smokey goings-on are just one big MacGuffin to help the characters resolve all of their issues and evolve as people.  THAT is the grand story of Lost, and while the island stuff drives the action&#8230; it&#8217;s only as a means of showing how these people learn to live in the world around them.</p>
<p>So how is that for a non-answer? :-)</p>
<p>Getting back to your question, I think I listed those three characters both in terms of their importance to the ending AND the likelihood they&#8217;ll be key to resolving the Jacob-Smokey drama &#8212; they go hand in hand.  Jack is the guy with the most screen time and every couple of episodes seem to be about him; he also has the most dramatized, obvious personal issue to resolve.  Hurley can talk to the dead (but in a literal way that Miles can&#8217;t) and seems to be &#8220;special&#8221; in a way the other characters are not; however, he seems to have resolved his issues for the most part, so I can&#8217;t imagine any grand denouement about him.  And Desmond is &#8220;special&#8221; because of his time-travel ability, and, well, because Eloise SAID he was&#8230; but he&#8217;s barely had screen time in S5 and 6, so I can&#8217;t imagine he&#8217;s going to tie all the plot threads together at the end.</p>
<p>So yes, I think those three will have important roles to play in the resolution&#8230; in that order.</p>
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		<title>By: Gab</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/03/lost-open-thread-sundown/#comment-15593</link>
		<dc:creator>Gab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 07:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13645#comment-15593</guid>
		<description>@Kevin:  Kay, I feel really dumb asking this, but what do you mean by, &quot;...it will be one/all of the following: Jack; Hurley; and Desmond, and in that order,&quot;?  What &quot;it&quot; are you meaning?  Is that their order of importance, the likelihood you think they&#039;ll be &quot;key,&quot; or something else, perhaps?  Sorry, I just, uh...  got a little... lost... reading your comment.

And then I was killed by Smokey for the pun.

But the line of questioning is in earnest, promise!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Kevin:  Kay, I feel really dumb asking this, but what do you mean by, &#8220;&#8230;it will be one/all of the following: Jack; Hurley; and Desmond, and in that order,&#8221;?  What &#8220;it&#8221; are you meaning?  Is that their order of importance, the likelihood you think they&#8217;ll be &#8220;key,&#8221; or something else, perhaps?  Sorry, I just, uh&#8230;  got a little&#8230; lost&#8230; reading your comment.</p>
<p>And then I was killed by Smokey for the pun.</p>
<p>But the line of questioning is in earnest, promise!</p>
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		<title>By: Genevieve</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/03/lost-open-thread-sundown/#comment-15592</link>
		<dc:creator>Genevieve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 05:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13645#comment-15592</guid>
		<description>@Kevin - Heh, it&#039;s really funny that we used the same phrase; your post wasn&#039;t actually there when I was typing mine.  I didn&#039;t see it &#039;til I posted!  I was going solely on a conversation I&#039;d had IRL earlier in the day.  I&#039;m hoping you&#039;re right that she won&#039;t be central to the resolution... but I have my doubts, and I think it&#039;s because, as you said, the writers seem to like Kate more than any of the fans do.  Not well enough to give her any decent episodes, of course, but...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Kevin &#8211; Heh, it&#8217;s really funny that we used the same phrase; your post wasn&#8217;t actually there when I was typing mine.  I didn&#8217;t see it &#8217;til I posted!  I was going solely on a conversation I&#8217;d had IRL earlier in the day.  I&#8217;m hoping you&#8217;re right that she won&#8217;t be central to the resolution&#8230; but I have my doubts, and I think it&#8217;s because, as you said, the writers seem to like Kate more than any of the fans do.  Not well enough to give her any decent episodes, of course, but&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/03/lost-open-thread-sundown/#comment-15591</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 01:53:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13645#comment-15591</guid>
		<description>@Genevieve: I should have stated that more clearly -- while Kate is a &quot;wild card,&quot; I meant only in the sense that I don&#039;t think Smokey will ever be able to seduce her and bring her over to the &quot;dark side&quot;.  She won&#039;t be THE hero, but she&#039;ll do something heroic to help beat him.  (Yes, she&#039;s part of Smokey&#039;s &quot;team&quot; now, but only because she&#039;s trying to figure out what the hell is going on and where everyone else is -- and Smokey is willing to see what happens with her, since if she does anything to threaten him, all he has to do is kill her.  She&#039;s a curiosity to him at this point... for now, the more the merrier.)

I think the writers like Kate more than any of us... but she won&#039;t be the &quot;key to everything.&quot;  If I had to guess -- and this is pure conjecture on my part, based on a history of movie and TV cliches -- I&#039;d say it will be one/all of the following: Jack; Hurley; and Desmond, in that order.  (Sawyer will have been conning Smokey and ultimately screw him.  Kate and Ben will play important roles; Miles a very minor one, along with what&#039;s-her-name and Lapidus.  Sayid will die; Claire, who cares; and Sun and Jin will, like the last few seasons, have little to do but watch it all unfold around them.  And we&#039;ll see if &quot;real&quot; Locke is resurrected, though I have no idea how that would happen.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Genevieve: I should have stated that more clearly &#8212; while Kate is a &#8220;wild card,&#8221; I meant only in the sense that I don&#8217;t think Smokey will ever be able to seduce her and bring her over to the &#8220;dark side&#8221;.  She won&#8217;t be THE hero, but she&#8217;ll do something heroic to help beat him.  (Yes, she&#8217;s part of Smokey&#8217;s &#8220;team&#8221; now, but only because she&#8217;s trying to figure out what the hell is going on and where everyone else is &#8212; and Smokey is willing to see what happens with her, since if she does anything to threaten him, all he has to do is kill her.  She&#8217;s a curiosity to him at this point&#8230; for now, the more the merrier.)</p>
<p>I think the writers like Kate more than any of us&#8230; but she won&#8217;t be the &#8220;key to everything.&#8221;  If I had to guess &#8212; and this is pure conjecture on my part, based on a history of movie and TV cliches &#8212; I&#8217;d say it will be one/all of the following: Jack; Hurley; and Desmond, in that order.  (Sawyer will have been conning Smokey and ultimately screw him.  Kate and Ben will play important roles; Miles a very minor one, along with what&#8217;s-her-name and Lapidus.  Sayid will die; Claire, who cares; and Sun and Jin will, like the last few seasons, have little to do but watch it all unfold around them.  And we&#8217;ll see if &#8220;real&#8221; Locke is resurrected, though I have no idea how that would happen.)</p>
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		<title>By: Genevieve</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/03/lost-open-thread-sundown/#comment-15584</link>
		<dc:creator>Genevieve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 19:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13645#comment-15584</guid>
		<description>@Harold re bad mothers: Yikes, the list is almost too long to tell!  What about Locke&#039;s mother (abandoning him; lying to him to get money from his dad)?  What about Kate&#039;s mother (willing to turn in her own daughter, &amp; blaming her, even though she bore some responsibility for allowing Kate to be abused in the first place)?  Even the decent mothers make poor choices (Jack&#039;s mother staying with a philandering alcoholic, Walt&#039;s mother manipulating Michael into giving up custody, Hurley&#039;s mother getting back together with his father.)  Seems to me the best mothers are the non-biological sort (Kate w/ Aaron, Cindy w/ Zach &amp; Emma.)

@mlawaski: Rose has never been baby crazy.  In fact, doesn&#039;t she have kids from a first marriage, but only barely mention them?  In fact, given all the other baby-craziness, that would make it absolutely hilarious if (as some have speculated) she and Bernard did end up being Adam &amp; Eve haha!


Q1 - I didn&#039;t notice.  Hmmmm.

Q2 - I think he was just referring to himself, not the island, but I don&#039;t think he meant the alternate timeline (where, as someone already pointed out, Sayid actually *doesn&#039;t* get Nadia.)  I also think he doesn&#039;t have a single modicum of intent to actually do as he promises.  

I really thought Sayid was smarter than that, though.  I expected him to say, in response to &quot;What if I told you you could have anything you wanted?” something like, &quot;Then I would KNOW that you&#039;re evil incarnate, because only someone evil would promise that.&quot;  He seems to be incredibly stupid as far as Nadia&#039;s concerned, though.

Which brings me to an interesting point.  Someone pointed out that everyone in the alternate timeline seemed to have had their emotional issues resolved, except Sayid.  That was my first impression, too... until he delivered that line about how he can&#039;t be with Nadia b/c he&#039;s not worthy of her.  I think that is a HUGE step from where he is in this timeline, willing to give himself over to evil just to be with her again, and her reaction to it all be damned.  He still loved her, in alterna-time, but he had moved past that.  He was more interested in her happiness than his own.  That&#039;s kind of big, and offers a lot of insight into his character.


This episode REALLY didn&#039;t sit well with me, either, and I think part of the reason why is that it was all questions, and no answers... which was fine for the first 5 seasons, but we&#039;ve gotten used to getting answers this season, and now they&#039;ve all been subverted.  The whole bit about Dogen keeping &quot;all that was keeping [Smokey] out&quot; was... just weird.  As Jon Eric said, it just kinda smacks of &quot;clumsy writing,&quot; and I really really don&#039;t want to believe that :(

I also don&#039;t like that Kate is the wild card.  As my boyfriend pointed out, she was always supposed to be the &quot;hero&quot; of the show, until at the last minute they decided not to kill Jack.  Also, it appears that Lockelganger doesn&#039;t know that she&#039;s a candidate... and she&#039;s following along with him now, which could *dun dun duuuuun!* change everything.  The reason I don&#039;t like this, emotionally, is because I can&#039;t stand Kate.  The reason I don&#039;t like it, narratively, is because NO ONE can stand Kate.  She&#039;s one of the most universally reviled characters on the show.  Her episodes are constantly mocked.  &quot;All Kate does is run.&quot;  Etc, etc.  If she turns out to be the key to EVERYTHING, then that means that the writers have, effectively, been keeping her around as the ace in their back pocket.  It&#039;s as though they didn&#039;t want to make her SEEM pertinent, because that might give it away.  If she&#039;s the key, then she&#039;s their deus ex machina... and THAT is &quot;clumsy writing.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Harold re bad mothers: Yikes, the list is almost too long to tell!  What about Locke&#8217;s mother (abandoning him; lying to him to get money from his dad)?  What about Kate&#8217;s mother (willing to turn in her own daughter, &amp; blaming her, even though she bore some responsibility for allowing Kate to be abused in the first place)?  Even the decent mothers make poor choices (Jack&#8217;s mother staying with a philandering alcoholic, Walt&#8217;s mother manipulating Michael into giving up custody, Hurley&#8217;s mother getting back together with his father.)  Seems to me the best mothers are the non-biological sort (Kate w/ Aaron, Cindy w/ Zach &amp; Emma.)</p>
<p>@mlawaski: Rose has never been baby crazy.  In fact, doesn&#8217;t she have kids from a first marriage, but only barely mention them?  In fact, given all the other baby-craziness, that would make it absolutely hilarious if (as some have speculated) she and Bernard did end up being Adam &amp; Eve haha!</p>
<p>Q1 &#8211; I didn&#8217;t notice.  Hmmmm.</p>
<p>Q2 &#8211; I think he was just referring to himself, not the island, but I don&#8217;t think he meant the alternate timeline (where, as someone already pointed out, Sayid actually *doesn&#8217;t* get Nadia.)  I also think he doesn&#8217;t have a single modicum of intent to actually do as he promises.  </p>
<p>I really thought Sayid was smarter than that, though.  I expected him to say, in response to &#8220;What if I told you you could have anything you wanted?” something like, &#8220;Then I would KNOW that you&#8217;re evil incarnate, because only someone evil would promise that.&#8221;  He seems to be incredibly stupid as far as Nadia&#8217;s concerned, though.</p>
<p>Which brings me to an interesting point.  Someone pointed out that everyone in the alternate timeline seemed to have had their emotional issues resolved, except Sayid.  That was my first impression, too&#8230; until he delivered that line about how he can&#8217;t be with Nadia b/c he&#8217;s not worthy of her.  I think that is a HUGE step from where he is in this timeline, willing to give himself over to evil just to be with her again, and her reaction to it all be damned.  He still loved her, in alterna-time, but he had moved past that.  He was more interested in her happiness than his own.  That&#8217;s kind of big, and offers a lot of insight into his character.</p>
<p>This episode REALLY didn&#8217;t sit well with me, either, and I think part of the reason why is that it was all questions, and no answers&#8230; which was fine for the first 5 seasons, but we&#8217;ve gotten used to getting answers this season, and now they&#8217;ve all been subverted.  The whole bit about Dogen keeping &#8220;all that was keeping [Smokey] out&#8221; was&#8230; just weird.  As Jon Eric said, it just kinda smacks of &#8220;clumsy writing,&#8221; and I really really don&#8217;t want to believe that :(</p>
<p>I also don&#8217;t like that Kate is the wild card.  As my boyfriend pointed out, she was always supposed to be the &#8220;hero&#8221; of the show, until at the last minute they decided not to kill Jack.  Also, it appears that Lockelganger doesn&#8217;t know that she&#8217;s a candidate&#8230; and she&#8217;s following along with him now, which could *dun dun duuuuun!* change everything.  The reason I don&#8217;t like this, emotionally, is because I can&#8217;t stand Kate.  The reason I don&#8217;t like it, narratively, is because NO ONE can stand Kate.  She&#8217;s one of the most universally reviled characters on the show.  Her episodes are constantly mocked.  &#8220;All Kate does is run.&#8221;  Etc, etc.  If she turns out to be the key to EVERYTHING, then that means that the writers have, effectively, been keeping her around as the ace in their back pocket.  It&#8217;s as though they didn&#8217;t want to make her SEEM pertinent, because that might give it away.  If she&#8217;s the key, then she&#8217;s their deus ex machina&#8230; and THAT is &#8220;clumsy writing.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/03/lost-open-thread-sundown/#comment-15583</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 19:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13645#comment-15583</guid>
		<description>@Gab &amp; stabbim: yeah, I definitely think Sawyer&#039;s the mole in Smokey&#039;s camp, and that he&#039;s been planning a &quot;long con&quot; of his own. (I think it&#039;s relevant that he&#039;s the only one who wasn&#039;t at the Temple attack with him -- well, come to think of it, Jin wasn&#039;t either... but I don&#039;t think Jin is in league with Smokey either.)

Now, as for Kate: she&#039;s definitely the wild card, and I think Smokey has HUGELY underestimated her.  Remember, while she wasn&#039;t revealed as such on Smokey&#039;s cave wall... she WAS on Jacob&#039;s wheel.  I think she&#039;s Jacob&#039;s sleeper, hidden in plain sight.  Smokey only thinks she&#039;s not a threat -- if she acts out, he can always just kill her, so what does he care?  But there&#039;s more to her than he realizes.

About the Temple Others, and the &quot;choice&quot; they were given -- someone smarter than I pointed out elsewhere that all the choices presented in &quot;Sundown&quot; were all FALSE choices.  Jacob, for example, offered Dogen a &quot;choice&quot; (go to the island and I&#039;ll save your son... but you can never see him again -- further proof that Jacob isn&#039;t &quot;good,&quot; only concerned with his own motives).  Smokey offers a &quot;choice&quot; (leave the Temple or die).  Sayid is offered a &quot;choice&quot; (after he&#039;s already infected and isn&#039;t being rational) and so on.  The best thing you can say about these choices is that they have MAJOR strings attached; but I think they&#039;re all illusory anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Gab &amp; stabbim: yeah, I definitely think Sawyer&#8217;s the mole in Smokey&#8217;s camp, and that he&#8217;s been planning a &#8220;long con&#8221; of his own. (I think it&#8217;s relevant that he&#8217;s the only one who wasn&#8217;t at the Temple attack with him &#8212; well, come to think of it, Jin wasn&#8217;t either&#8230; but I don&#8217;t think Jin is in league with Smokey either.)</p>
<p>Now, as for Kate: she&#8217;s definitely the wild card, and I think Smokey has HUGELY underestimated her.  Remember, while she wasn&#8217;t revealed as such on Smokey&#8217;s cave wall&#8230; she WAS on Jacob&#8217;s wheel.  I think she&#8217;s Jacob&#8217;s sleeper, hidden in plain sight.  Smokey only thinks she&#8217;s not a threat &#8212; if she acts out, he can always just kill her, so what does he care?  But there&#8217;s more to her than he realizes.</p>
<p>About the Temple Others, and the &#8220;choice&#8221; they were given &#8212; someone smarter than I pointed out elsewhere that all the choices presented in &#8220;Sundown&#8221; were all FALSE choices.  Jacob, for example, offered Dogen a &#8220;choice&#8221; (go to the island and I&#8217;ll save your son&#8230; but you can never see him again &#8212; further proof that Jacob isn&#8217;t &#8220;good,&#8221; only concerned with his own motives).  Smokey offers a &#8220;choice&#8221; (leave the Temple or die).  Sayid is offered a &#8220;choice&#8221; (after he&#8217;s already infected and isn&#8217;t being rational) and so on.  The best thing you can say about these choices is that they have MAJOR strings attached; but I think they&#8217;re all illusory anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: stabbim</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/03/03/lost-open-thread-sundown/#comment-15581</link>
		<dc:creator>stabbim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 17:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=13645#comment-15581</guid>
		<description>@Gab - I dunno, some folks have been raising similar speculations about Sawyer, but I don&#039;t think anyone in Smokey&#039;s camp is *planning* to spy on &amp;/or double-cross him. And judging from the way he seemed so indiferent to Kate tagging along, I don&#039;t think he&#039;s worried about the consequences of such a thing, either. 

I agree it makes no sense that Dogen being alive was keeping the Temple secure rather than the ash, unless the two were linked somehow...but now that he&#039;s dead, I don&#039;t suppose we&#039;ll be following up on that concept. 

On the subject of the Temple Others: though it was couched in the &quot;Jacob&#039;s gone, you&#039;re free&quot; context, the implicit message given to them certainly seemed to be &quot;Join me or die.&quot; I wonder what would have happened to anyone who took the alternative route -- not staying to defend the Temple, but choosing to venture out on their own rather than join Team Smokey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Gab &#8211; I dunno, some folks have been raising similar speculations about Sawyer, but I don&#8217;t think anyone in Smokey&#8217;s camp is *planning* to spy on &amp;/or double-cross him. And judging from the way he seemed so indiferent to Kate tagging along, I don&#8217;t think he&#8217;s worried about the consequences of such a thing, either. </p>
<p>I agree it makes no sense that Dogen being alive was keeping the Temple secure rather than the ash, unless the two were linked somehow&#8230;but now that he&#8217;s dead, I don&#8217;t suppose we&#8217;ll be following up on that concept. </p>
<p>On the subject of the Temple Others: though it was couched in the &#8220;Jacob&#8217;s gone, you&#8217;re free&#8221; context, the implicit message given to them certainly seemed to be &#8220;Join me or die.&#8221; I wonder what would have happened to anyone who took the alternative route &#8212; not staying to defend the Temple, but choosing to venture out on their own rather than join Team Smokey.</p>
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