I didn’t mean to misrepresent your SVU comments – I was just sort of playing devil’s advocate. You say that TV shows that depict rape make you uncomfortable, and I sort of assumed you were saying that these shows were doing something inappropriate. But on review, you were just saying that they made you uncomfortable. I apologize for misconstruing.

HOWEVER, I’m pretty sure Amelie DID argue that SVU was morally wrong and sexist. That was way up near the top of this epic comment thread.

Moving on: I guess I’m not completely buying that rape isn’t about sex. Yes, absolutely it’s about power and violence, but can’t it ALSO be about sex? Actually, more to the point, I’m not sure I buy ANY blanket statement about what rape is “about.” I think rape, like murder, can be committed for a very broad range of reasons. You allude to the use of rape in ethnic cleansing, but surely you’re not suggesting that ALL rape is a “weapon of war”? Obviously you know more about this stuff then I do, but I’ve got to say, “Rape has nothing to do with sex” doesn’t feel like a true statement to me.

Now, let me see if I can refocus this on Showgirls. This debate began when Amelie said that the rape scene was “sexist” and “gratuitous.” I responded that it didn’t seem gratuitous to me, because the whole movie is about women presenting themselves as sex objects. The rape scene, to me, shows the dangers of that. You, in turn, see that as dangerously close to blaming the victim. Just because women strip and give lapdances does not mean anyone is justified in raping them. Of course I COMPLETELY agree with you. I only meant that giving lapdances raises the probability that you will be sexually assaulted:
http://www.desireealliance.org/Exoticdancersfacerealdangers.htm
However, Molly ISN’T a stripper, which complicates my argument.

My goal here has been to argue that there is nothing “sexist” about the rape scene. So let me test an entirely new argument on you. Forget the idea that the rape is somehow a product of all the stripping. What if the whole POINT is really to show the casino’s reaction to it (nothing)? At the beginning of the film, Nomi sees Cristal Connors and envies her. She’s the toast of Vegas. She SEEMS powerful and respected, right? But the rape reveals the truth to Nomi – women aren’t respected in Vegas, one little bit. It’s a boys club, and she doesn’t have one iota of power. And what good is being the toast of Vegas if she can’t do anything to help her friend?

Whew, I’m exhausted. Could you sort of remind me what your position is, re:Showgirls? Do you hate the movie? Do you object to the rape scene? Would it still be sexist if a women had written the script?

- Matt

I agree with your point about objectification of women and male awareness of body/sexuality. But again, rape is not about sex, it’s about power and violence (in fact it’s now widely defined as a “weapon of war” by the WHO, UNFPA, and other global health and humanitarian organizations). And it’s also very important that we don’t give anyone a pass for being in a situation where they were “forced” to think of their dongs and then it was somehow “more likely” that they would work themselves into some frenzy that culminated in rape. This is what soldiers in the DRC say after raping 14 year olds with machetes. Like actually — I had to write a case study on it. Wild dogs we are not, and any “frenzied sexual state” arguments are demeaning both to women who have been assaulted and men who are trying to achieve a nuanced understanding of human sexuality. Thus: linkage, sure. Sufficient linkage? HELL no.

Remember, too, that this is sticky territory in terms of legal/advocacy progress: while I know you were not making the “she was asking for it” argument, and I would not accuse you of doing so, tracing cause to the activities of the rape survivor in any way is a really fraught direction to go in. After all, it was only maybe 15 years ago — maybe, and that’s a generous estimate — that “she was wearing something that made her boobs obvious, thus my client is in no way culpable” was still a largely effective method to use with juries in sexual assault cases in the US.

So sure, stripping may assist men in maintaining and justifying the really messed up ideas about woman they bring to the situation, but it is not enough to put any new ones in their heads — and definitely not enough to inspire rape.

- Matt

But now we’re way off topic. This is why this site needs discussion forums. Jeez. Who the hell is in charge around here?