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	<title>Comments on: A Slime Draws Near. Command?</title>
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	<description>Overthinking It subjects the popular culture to a level of scrutiny it probably doesn&#039;t deserve.</description>
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		<title>By: Gab</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/08/13/console-rpg/#comment-11477</link>
		<dc:creator>Gab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 22:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=9344#comment-11477</guid>
		<description>Oh, believe you me, I had the undead book on pre-order from Amazon.  Soooooo pretty...  I gave it to the DM, though. :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, believe you me, I had the undead book on pre-order from Amazon.  Soooooo pretty&#8230;  I gave it to the DM, though. :(</p>
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		<title>By: Tom P</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/08/13/console-rpg/#comment-11470</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=9344#comment-11470</guid>
		<description>Non-ranger melee characters don&#039;t really need dexterity for anything.  All of the warlord&#039;s attack powers use strength.  The only thing dex adds to a warlord is AC, which is offset by the high intelligence since int can add to AC in place of dex.

I was really surprised they didn&#039;t include a necromancer class in the undead book they put out a few months ago.  I guess if you took the &quot;Summoner&quot; wizard build from Arcane Power and replaced the living creatures with undead ones you could get pretty close.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Non-ranger melee characters don&#8217;t really need dexterity for anything.  All of the warlord&#8217;s attack powers use strength.  The only thing dex adds to a warlord is AC, which is offset by the high intelligence since int can add to AC in place of dex.</p>
<p>I was really surprised they didn&#8217;t include a necromancer class in the undead book they put out a few months ago.  I guess if you took the &#8220;Summoner&#8221; wizard build from Arcane Power and replaced the living creatures with undead ones you could get pretty close.</p>
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		<title>By: Gab</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/08/13/console-rpg/#comment-11464</link>
		<dc:creator>Gab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 06:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=9344#comment-11464</guid>
		<description>@ Tom P:  Hm...  Interesting.  With dex being where you tanked it, doesn&#039;t that kind of hurt your melee, or does the Melee feat help nullify that?  I don&#039;t have the PHP2 on my person and don&#039;t have it memorized, so could you explain it to me?  I&#039;m stuck at a melee character with low dex- my tiny understanding of &quot;mechanics&quot; says this doesn&#039;t make sense, but you obviously got it to work, so now my curiosity: &#039;tis piqued!

My 4thEd character is pretty homegrown because it&#039;s a necromancer with a skull as an implement- most of my spells are adaptations of the inferno pact for warlock, or stuff my DM and I came up with together that seemed appropriate for the skill level I was reaching.  And he sort of fudged things so I could have a familiar (a mini-Boneyard, GOD is that thing awesome) without multiclassing because, and I quote, &quot;Multiclassing sucks really big whale balls, so we&#039;re going to avoid it at all costs.&quot;  But maybe what I wanted to do with the character is what would have made multiclassing suck so much.  I mean, whale balls?  Yikes.  ;p</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Tom P:  Hm&#8230;  Interesting.  With dex being where you tanked it, doesn&#8217;t that kind of hurt your melee, or does the Melee feat help nullify that?  I don&#8217;t have the PHP2 on my person and don&#8217;t have it memorized, so could you explain it to me?  I&#8217;m stuck at a melee character with low dex- my tiny understanding of &#8220;mechanics&#8221; says this doesn&#8217;t make sense, but you obviously got it to work, so now my curiosity: &#8217;tis piqued!</p>
<p>My 4thEd character is pretty homegrown because it&#8217;s a necromancer with a skull as an implement- most of my spells are adaptations of the inferno pact for warlock, or stuff my DM and I came up with together that seemed appropriate for the skill level I was reaching.  And he sort of fudged things so I could have a familiar (a mini-Boneyard, GOD is that thing awesome) without multiclassing because, and I quote, &#8220;Multiclassing sucks really big whale balls, so we&#8217;re going to avoid it at all costs.&#8221;  But maybe what I wanted to do with the character is what would have made multiclassing suck so much.  I mean, whale balls?  Yikes.  ;p</p>
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		<title>By: Tom P</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/08/13/console-rpg/#comment-11458</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 23:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=9344#comment-11458</guid>
		<description>The 18/14/11/10/10/8 build with the 8 in dex and the 11 in cha.  

You can do it as Multiclass Swordmage which gives you longswords as implements.  Or you can do it as wizard with the Eladrin feat from Arcane Power that gives you longswords as implements, which eventually gets you to the wizard of the spiral tower PP which, itself, gives you longswords as implements so you get your feat back.

If you use a longsword and choose weapon attacks that target non-AC defenses, the math scales just like implement attacks and your primary damage comes from your multiclass abilities -- along with all the awesome stuff that taclords give the party.  If you take Melee training from PHB 2 to do melee basics with your int, you almost don&#039;t notice the lack of strength.

The problem, of course, is you need to spend 4 feats on multiclassing which prevents you from taking the aforementioned math fix feats so you lag behind the rest of the party and the bad guy&#039;s AC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The 18/14/11/10/10/8 build with the 8 in dex and the 11 in cha.  </p>
<p>You can do it as Multiclass Swordmage which gives you longswords as implements.  Or you can do it as wizard with the Eladrin feat from Arcane Power that gives you longswords as implements, which eventually gets you to the wizard of the spiral tower PP which, itself, gives you longswords as implements so you get your feat back.</p>
<p>If you use a longsword and choose weapon attacks that target non-AC defenses, the math scales just like implement attacks and your primary damage comes from your multiclass abilities &#8212; along with all the awesome stuff that taclords give the party.  If you take Melee training from PHB 2 to do melee basics with your int, you almost don&#8217;t notice the lack of strength.</p>
<p>The problem, of course, is you need to spend 4 feats on multiclassing which prevents you from taking the aforementioned math fix feats so you lag behind the rest of the party and the bad guy&#8217;s AC.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Gab</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/08/13/console-rpg/#comment-11457</link>
		<dc:creator>Gab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 22:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=9344#comment-11457</guid>
		<description>Whoa, so what stats did he totally suffer in?  Wis?  Or is he buffugly?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoa, so what stats did he totally suffer in?  Wis?  Or is he buffugly?</p>
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		<title>By: Tom P</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/08/13/console-rpg/#comment-11454</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 18:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=9344#comment-11454</guid>
		<description>@perich/@Gab:  I disagree that 4ed is good at rules execution.  In their desire to keep people from breaking the system one way, they broke it in the other direction.  Monster defenses scale up way too fast for PC powers -- which is why every book includes &quot;patch&quot; feats.  They insisted they wanted to remove &quot;must take&quot; feats and abilities from the game and then immediately re-added them in PHB2 with weapon/implement expertise which is nothing more than fixing the math they screwed up in PHB 1.

I agree that 3/3.5ed had it&#039;s issues.  Multiclassing was entirely broken and druids were insanely broken, but they could have done something else other than turn D&amp;D into tabletop WoW.  I&#039;d agree the combat system is much better with the removal of instadeath and the upgrade to saving throws.

Multiclassing can work, but you have to think WAY outside the box to get it right.  Like my Eladrin Taclord multiclassed with Wizard -- but to make it work I had to have a warlord with a 14 str and 18 int.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@perich/@Gab:  I disagree that 4ed is good at rules execution.  In their desire to keep people from breaking the system one way, they broke it in the other direction.  Monster defenses scale up way too fast for PC powers &#8212; which is why every book includes &#8220;patch&#8221; feats.  They insisted they wanted to remove &#8220;must take&#8221; feats and abilities from the game and then immediately re-added them in PHB2 with weapon/implement expertise which is nothing more than fixing the math they screwed up in PHB 1.</p>
<p>I agree that 3/3.5ed had it&#8217;s issues.  Multiclassing was entirely broken and druids were insanely broken, but they could have done something else other than turn D&amp;D into tabletop WoW.  I&#8217;d agree the combat system is much better with the removal of instadeath and the upgrade to saving throws.</p>
<p>Multiclassing can work, but you have to think WAY outside the box to get it right.  Like my Eladrin Taclord multiclassed with Wizard &#8212; but to make it work I had to have a warlord with a 14 str and 18 int.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gab</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/08/13/console-rpg/#comment-11432</link>
		<dc:creator>Gab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 17:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=9344#comment-11432</guid>
		<description>::geeking out::

I prefer 4th Ed., but I&#039;ll admit it&#039;s probably because I roleplay as opposed to rollplay, so my DM and fellow players usually just tell me what dice and stats to use when I need to actually roll something.  As such, mechanics don&#039;t really get to me all that much, and I am not remotely an authority on the subject.  Also, as a player, while I liked Dogs a lot, I like 7th Sea more.  Lots of potential for swashbuckling badassery, like, &quot;I&#039;m going to swing from the chandelier and hook his tankard onto my sword.&quot;

And while we&#039;re on 4th Ed. a bit: 

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/1289/christianbalefinal.jpg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>::geeking out::</p>
<p>I prefer 4th Ed., but I&#8217;ll admit it&#8217;s probably because I roleplay as opposed to rollplay, so my DM and fellow players usually just tell me what dice and stats to use when I need to actually roll something.  As such, mechanics don&#8217;t really get to me all that much, and I am not remotely an authority on the subject.  Also, as a player, while I liked Dogs a lot, I like 7th Sea more.  Lots of potential for swashbuckling badassery, like, &#8220;I&#8217;m going to swing from the chandelier and hook his tankard onto my sword.&#8221;</p>
<p>And while we&#8217;re on 4th Ed. a bit: </p>
<p><a href="http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/1289/christianbalefinal.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/1289/christianbalefinal.jpg</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: perich</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/08/13/console-rpg/#comment-11430</link>
		<dc:creator>perich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 12:58:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=9344#comment-11430</guid>
		<description>@Tom and @Gab: D&amp;D 4th Ed. is the best tabletop RPG on the market at unifying intended play experience and rules execution.  It&#039;s the game that most knows what it wants.  Indie games like Mouse Guard, Don&#039;t Rest Your Head or Dogs in the Vineyard may fight it out for the #2 and #3 slots, but D&amp;D&#039;s really, really good at producing a small range of play experiences.

Of course, if those aren&#039;t play experiences you enjoy, that&#039;s a big market closed to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tom and @Gab: D&#038;D 4th Ed. is the best tabletop RPG on the market at unifying intended play experience and rules execution.  It&#8217;s the game that most knows what it wants.  Indie games like Mouse Guard, Don&#8217;t Rest Your Head or Dogs in the Vineyard may fight it out for the #2 and #3 slots, but D&#038;D&#8217;s really, really good at producing a small range of play experiences.</p>
<p>Of course, if those aren&#8217;t play experiences you enjoy, that&#8217;s a big market closed to you.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gab</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/08/13/console-rpg/#comment-11426</link>
		<dc:creator>Gab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 23:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=9344#comment-11426</guid>
		<description>In defense of 4th Ed., some of the changes did indeed help make some things less &quot;broken.&quot; Eg. druids: between being able to summon a creature to attack, having a familiar with a good melee attack, and having their own main action, druids could, essentially, do three actions every turn before, plus every individual under their control could move.  Now it&#039;s one major, one minor, and one move action per turn for EVERYBODY, no more of this separate stuff for attached entities, so they have to choose if sustaining the creature summoned is worth it every time and if someone needs a heal or if the summoned creature should attack, as well as who/what needs to move the most.  

I&#039;m not saying 4th Ed. is perfect, but like with a lot of things that get upgraded, some aspects are better, while others are, yes, totally screwed up (like multi-classing, oh my friggin&#039; GOD...) (and saving throws bug the crap out of me, too...).  It&#039;s not all of either, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In defense of 4th Ed., some of the changes did indeed help make some things less &#8220;broken.&#8221; Eg. druids: between being able to summon a creature to attack, having a familiar with a good melee attack, and having their own main action, druids could, essentially, do three actions every turn before, plus every individual under their control could move.  Now it&#8217;s one major, one minor, and one move action per turn for EVERYBODY, no more of this separate stuff for attached entities, so they have to choose if sustaining the creature summoned is worth it every time and if someone needs a heal or if the summoned creature should attack, as well as who/what needs to move the most.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying 4th Ed. is perfect, but like with a lot of things that get upgraded, some aspects are better, while others are, yes, totally screwed up (like multi-classing, oh my friggin&#8217; GOD&#8230;) (and saving throws bug the crap out of me, too&#8230;).  It&#8217;s not all of either, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom P</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/08/13/console-rpg/#comment-11425</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 22:55:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=9344#comment-11425</guid>
		<description>@perich: I think it&#039;s interesting that the original console RPGs grew from the tabletop RPGs but the 4th edition of D&amp;D &lt;i&gt;clearly&lt;/i&gt; grew from the evolution of video games -- particularly WOW.  As someone who isn&#039;t a fan of WOW, I really, REALLY hate 4ed.  The role stuff is way too constricting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@perich: I think it&#8217;s interesting that the original console RPGs grew from the tabletop RPGs but the 4th edition of D&amp;D <i>clearly</i> grew from the evolution of video games &#8212; particularly WOW.  As someone who isn&#8217;t a fan of WOW, I really, REALLY hate 4ed.  The role stuff is way too constricting.</p>
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