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	<title>Comments on: Language and the Jedi [Think Tank]</title>
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	<description>Overthinking It subjects the popular culture to a level of scrutiny it probably doesn&#039;t deserve.</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: zeratul</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/06/19/language-and-the-jedi-think-tank/#comment-11084</link>
		<dc:creator>zeratul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 02:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=8325#comment-11084</guid>
		<description>in the return of the Jedi it took several years for them to form the plan and deploy it to rescue han from jabba in which it probably took luke no time to learn hut</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>in the return of the Jedi it took several years for them to form the plan and deploy it to rescue han from jabba in which it probably took luke no time to learn hut</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: donn</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/06/19/language-and-the-jedi-think-tank/#comment-10041</link>
		<dc:creator>donn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=8325#comment-10041</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m pretty sure in the original series R2 was not explicitly understandable, but you could get a general feel for his mood:

   INTERIOR: LUKE&#039;S X-WING -- COCKPIT
   Luke watches Artoo&#039;s words as they are translated and 
   screened on the computer scope.
   
   LUKE: (into comlink) Yes, that&#039;s it. Dagobah.

   Artoo beeps a hopeful inquiry.

   LUKE: (into comlink) No, I&#039;m not going to change my mind about this.
   (getting a little nervous) I&#039;m not picking up any cities or
   technology. Massive life-form readings, though. There&#039;s something
   alive down there...

Here, Luke has a pretty involved conversation with R2, but he&#039;s seeing the words translated on screen. Later, after they&#039;ve landed and are out of the X-Wing:

   Luke helps Artoo to his feet and begins wiping the mud and
   roots from his round metal body. Artoo responds with feeble,
   soggy beeps.

   LUKE: If you&#039;re saying coming here was a bad idea, I&#039;m beginning to
   agree with you. Oh, Artoo, what are we doing here? It&#039;s like...
   something out of a dream, or, I don&#039;t know. Maybe I&#039;m just going
   crazy.

Outside of the X-Wing, without the translated words on screen, Luke has to guess at what R2 is saying. 

&lt;i&gt;italics&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;b&gt;bold&lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure in the original series R2 was not explicitly understandable, but you could get a general feel for his mood:</p>
<p>   INTERIOR: LUKE&#8217;S X-WING &#8212; COCKPIT<br />
   Luke watches Artoo&#8217;s words as they are translated and<br />
   screened on the computer scope.</p>
<p>   LUKE: (into comlink) Yes, that&#8217;s it. Dagobah.</p>
<p>   Artoo beeps a hopeful inquiry.</p>
<p>   LUKE: (into comlink) No, I&#8217;m not going to change my mind about this.<br />
   (getting a little nervous) I&#8217;m not picking up any cities or<br />
   technology. Massive life-form readings, though. There&#8217;s something<br />
   alive down there&#8230;</p>
<p>Here, Luke has a pretty involved conversation with R2, but he&#8217;s seeing the words translated on screen. Later, after they&#8217;ve landed and are out of the X-Wing:</p>
<p>   Luke helps Artoo to his feet and begins wiping the mud and<br />
   roots from his round metal body. Artoo responds with feeble,<br />
   soggy beeps.</p>
<p>   LUKE: If you&#8217;re saying coming here was a bad idea, I&#8217;m beginning to<br />
   agree with you. Oh, Artoo, what are we doing here? It&#8217;s like&#8230;<br />
   something out of a dream, or, I don&#8217;t know. Maybe I&#8217;m just going<br />
   crazy.</p>
<p>Outside of the X-Wing, without the translated words on screen, Luke has to guess at what R2 is saying. </p>
<p><i>italics</i><br />
<b>bold</b></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Gab</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/06/19/language-and-the-jedi-think-tank/#comment-10032</link>
		<dc:creator>Gab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=8325#comment-10032</guid>
		<description>@Belinkie: I haven&#039;t seen the older movies in ages, so I don&#039;t doubt your accuracy there.  I was basing my argument on what was in my memory, and I have seen the prequels more recently than the originals; so those are (sadly) more influential in my thought process.  So, for example, Obi-Wan seems to talk *with*, not at, his android, which he calls &quot;R4,&quot; in the first scene in _Episode III_ (while he&#039;s flying and shooting and such).  And the way both he and Anakin interact with R2 as the rest of the stuff on that particular cruiser takes place could certainly be interpreted either way (when they&#039;d actually be able to hear his bleeps).  So perhaps there are inconsistencies among the films themselves?  That, frankly, wouldn&#039;t surprise me in the slightest.  I&#039;ll admit, though, that I very well could be giving it too liberal of an interpretation- perhaps I just want to see them understand that plucky little robot...

If R2 is in fact un-understandable, that part of my argument is invalid.  But this un-understandability is still somewhat elitist of the Republic/Empire, for again, if they can program other androids like C3-PO to &quot;speak&quot; languages used by living races, why program an android that deals with these races on a day-to-day basis without communications skills?  It isn&#039;t like every R2-D2-type model comes complete with its very own pocket C3-PO translator (and a free booklight if you call within the next ten minutes!).  The first explanation I can think of is that maybe one has to learn how to understand it, like any other language?  Who does R2 translate about Leia to?  Had they lots of experience around other androids of that make/model/what-have-you?

Oh, and a slight correction to my original post: &quot;Han and CHEWIE,&quot; not, &quot;Han and Jabba.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Belinkie: I haven&#8217;t seen the older movies in ages, so I don&#8217;t doubt your accuracy there.  I was basing my argument on what was in my memory, and I have seen the prequels more recently than the originals; so those are (sadly) more influential in my thought process.  So, for example, Obi-Wan seems to talk *with*, not at, his android, which he calls &#8220;R4,&#8221; in the first scene in _Episode III_ (while he&#8217;s flying and shooting and such).  And the way both he and Anakin interact with R2 as the rest of the stuff on that particular cruiser takes place could certainly be interpreted either way (when they&#8217;d actually be able to hear his bleeps).  So perhaps there are inconsistencies among the films themselves?  That, frankly, wouldn&#8217;t surprise me in the slightest.  I&#8217;ll admit, though, that I very well could be giving it too liberal of an interpretation- perhaps I just want to see them understand that plucky little robot&#8230;</p>
<p>If R2 is in fact un-understandable, that part of my argument is invalid.  But this un-understandability is still somewhat elitist of the Republic/Empire, for again, if they can program other androids like C3-PO to &#8220;speak&#8221; languages used by living races, why program an android that deals with these races on a day-to-day basis without communications skills?  It isn&#8217;t like every R2-D2-type model comes complete with its very own pocket C3-PO translator (and a free booklight if you call within the next ten minutes!).  The first explanation I can think of is that maybe one has to learn how to understand it, like any other language?  Who does R2 translate about Leia to?  Had they lots of experience around other androids of that make/model/what-have-you?</p>
<p>Oh, and a slight correction to my original post: &#8220;Han and CHEWIE,&#8221; not, &#8220;Han and Jabba.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Belinkie</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/06/19/language-and-the-jedi-think-tank/#comment-10027</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Belinkie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=8325#comment-10027</guid>
		<description>@Gab - Wait a second, are we SURE people can understand R2&#039;s beeps? Because I&#039;m pretty sure they can&#039;t. In the first film, I remember at least one scene where 3PO translates R2&#039;s news about Leia being scheduled for termination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Gab &#8211; Wait a second, are we SURE people can understand R2&#8242;s beeps? Because I&#8217;m pretty sure they can&#8217;t. In the first film, I remember at least one scene where 3PO translates R2&#8242;s news about Leia being scheduled for termination.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Hare</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/06/19/language-and-the-jedi-think-tank/#comment-10026</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=8325#comment-10026</guid>
		<description>Stokes - you&#039;ve read Phule&#039;s Company?  So YOU&#039;RE the other one...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stokes &#8211; you&#8217;ve read Phule&#8217;s Company?  So YOU&#8217;RE the other one&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Gab</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/06/19/language-and-the-jedi-think-tank/#comment-9969</link>
		<dc:creator>Gab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=8325#comment-9969</guid>
		<description>My personal interpretation: I think it&#039;s situational.  When there are two parties negotiating, it&#039;s the jockeying for power.  When it&#039;s Han and Jabba or friends speaking two languages, it&#039;s because their throats can&#039;t make the right sounds for the other&#039;s language.  When it&#039;s between races encountering each other day-to-day (be they direct employees of the Empire, Jedi, or two aliens in a bar) speaking English, it&#039;s a little complicated.  The purely UNDER-thought explanation is that&#039;s easiest for production and for execution of the plot (think &quot;Common&quot; in the languages of D&amp;D or _LotR_- it would take A LOT of time during a session to roleplay translations or for an author to describe them as they happen; and subtitles are one less thing to fix later); the OVERthought version is because it&#039;s the language of the Empire and proof of the power of said Empire (and the Republic beforehand- and yes, arguably, the Empire is just the Republic with a different name).  

Note how &quot;bad guys&quot; are the ones usually speaking different languages, especially to each other.  Commands are given in &quot;foreign&quot; tongues, as are conversations between/among the races/species/whatever of the enemies.  This happens in other genres/movies, too (orcs in _LotR_ or pretty much every baddy in a James Bond movie- although no, I haven&#039;t seen *every single one*, so prove me wrong, by all means!).  It Otherizes the bad guys, making it easier for us to cheer for their demise.  (Although it&#039;s sometimes kind of funny, too, like some of the droids in _Star Wars_.)

Oh, but as for the &quot;good&quot; androids, I&#039;d say both are tools for the influence of the Republic/Empire.  C-3PO speaks English/Common, the (literally) universal language of the Empire.  And he was programmed by a slave of said Republic/Empire.  Yes, that slave also spoke his direct master&#039;s language, but THAT master is/was subject to an even higher power that speaks English.  And it appears as though R2-D2&#039;s model of android is totally understandable by any race, which says it its little bleeps are so universal that even the most rudimentary, &quot;backwater&quot; (as described earlier) communities are exposed to it and everybody can understand them.  Remember, R2 isn&#039;t the only android of its kind, and nor is C3PO, for that matter.  In R2&#039;s case, we have a unique SECOND language of the Empire used EXCLUSIVELY by a specific kind of android but understandable by anyone/anything.  R2 may be A.I., but it&#039;s still programmable, so why not program it to actually speak like a C3-PO model unless it isn&#039;t MEANT to be as relatable?  It isn&#039;t the dominance of the androids being depicted, but that of the Republic/Empire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My personal interpretation: I think it&#8217;s situational.  When there are two parties negotiating, it&#8217;s the jockeying for power.  When it&#8217;s Han and Jabba or friends speaking two languages, it&#8217;s because their throats can&#8217;t make the right sounds for the other&#8217;s language.  When it&#8217;s between races encountering each other day-to-day (be they direct employees of the Empire, Jedi, or two aliens in a bar) speaking English, it&#8217;s a little complicated.  The purely UNDER-thought explanation is that&#8217;s easiest for production and for execution of the plot (think &#8220;Common&#8221; in the languages of D&amp;D or _LotR_- it would take A LOT of time during a session to roleplay translations or for an author to describe them as they happen; and subtitles are one less thing to fix later); the OVERthought version is because it&#8217;s the language of the Empire and proof of the power of said Empire (and the Republic beforehand- and yes, arguably, the Empire is just the Republic with a different name).  </p>
<p>Note how &#8220;bad guys&#8221; are the ones usually speaking different languages, especially to each other.  Commands are given in &#8220;foreign&#8221; tongues, as are conversations between/among the races/species/whatever of the enemies.  This happens in other genres/movies, too (orcs in _LotR_ or pretty much every baddy in a James Bond movie- although no, I haven&#8217;t seen *every single one*, so prove me wrong, by all means!).  It Otherizes the bad guys, making it easier for us to cheer for their demise.  (Although it&#8217;s sometimes kind of funny, too, like some of the droids in _Star Wars_.)</p>
<p>Oh, but as for the &#8220;good&#8221; androids, I&#8217;d say both are tools for the influence of the Republic/Empire.  C-3PO speaks English/Common, the (literally) universal language of the Empire.  And he was programmed by a slave of said Republic/Empire.  Yes, that slave also spoke his direct master&#8217;s language, but THAT master is/was subject to an even higher power that speaks English.  And it appears as though R2-D2&#8242;s model of android is totally understandable by any race, which says it its little bleeps are so universal that even the most rudimentary, &#8220;backwater&#8221; (as described earlier) communities are exposed to it and everybody can understand them.  Remember, R2 isn&#8217;t the only android of its kind, and nor is C3PO, for that matter.  In R2&#8242;s case, we have a unique SECOND language of the Empire used EXCLUSIVELY by a specific kind of android but understandable by anyone/anything.  R2 may be A.I., but it&#8217;s still programmable, so why not program it to actually speak like a C3-PO model unless it isn&#8217;t MEANT to be as relatable?  It isn&#8217;t the dominance of the androids being depicted, but that of the Republic/Empire.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan from Canada</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/06/19/language-and-the-jedi-think-tank/#comment-9946</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan from Canada</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=8325#comment-9946</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t underestimate the possibility that for a lot of these movies, maybe they would have considered having the entire thing done &quot;in language&quot; with subtitles, except that a fairly large number of these actors and actresses don&#039;t strike me as particularly able to even pretend to speak another language and still give a reasonably good performance.

In fictional worlds like Star Wars, they certainly could have created their own version of Basic and film the whole trilogy in basic and subtitle it, but what a headache that would have been.  

I mean, today they could make a science-fiction or fantasy epic done that way, and it would probably do pretty well, but that&#039;s mostly -because of- the widespread appeal of Star Wars, an appeal that probably would never have been there if the movie hadn&#039;t been filmed in english except when obvious &quot;aliens who don&#039;t even have to make noises recognizable as language&quot; are talking.

It is interesting though, that it seems like the majority of western made cinema where everyone is speaking the same foreign language, they tend towards having them all speak english with either accents or not as the cast is able (See also: Most every german-centric world war 2 movie) but for movies where half the cast is speaking english and half the cast is speaking something else, they tend towards having the foreign language actually portrayed with subtitles. (Most &quot;Asians in America&quot; martial arts movies, &quot;War&quot; comes to mind right now just because I watched it last night.)

I can see the benefit to an &#039;all or nothing&#039; approach for language in film, it would be pretty jarring to cast anglophone actors alongside actors who speak another language and just have to say &quot;Pretend both people are speaking the same language, but only one of them actually will because the other one doesn&#039;t speak the language&quot;

As regards the specific example of Luke and Jabba the Hutt, I&#039;m also willing to consider the possibility that they&#039;re doing the Obi-Wan Mind Trick dodge.  (This is where at Mos Eisley, Obi-wan does the &quot;You don&#039;t need to see his identification&quot; bit, clearly the mind-trick loses some efficacy if the guard next to him actually hears him say that and the guard just parrot it back, so the only reasonable conclusion is that he&#039;s saying it so we the viewers can go &#039;ooh, he&#039;s using mind powers and telling him what to say&#039;)

So it might be the case for Luke that his ability to communicate with people when he might not be expected to know the language does actually, as was perhaps jokingly described above, gain it as a force power.  Though it is also the far more likely reason that yes, as a native of Tattoine, he just speaks Hutt because it was useful for a trader to be able to speak it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t underestimate the possibility that for a lot of these movies, maybe they would have considered having the entire thing done &#8220;in language&#8221; with subtitles, except that a fairly large number of these actors and actresses don&#8217;t strike me as particularly able to even pretend to speak another language and still give a reasonably good performance.</p>
<p>In fictional worlds like Star Wars, they certainly could have created their own version of Basic and film the whole trilogy in basic and subtitle it, but what a headache that would have been.  </p>
<p>I mean, today they could make a science-fiction or fantasy epic done that way, and it would probably do pretty well, but that&#8217;s mostly -because of- the widespread appeal of Star Wars, an appeal that probably would never have been there if the movie hadn&#8217;t been filmed in english except when obvious &#8220;aliens who don&#8217;t even have to make noises recognizable as language&#8221; are talking.</p>
<p>It is interesting though, that it seems like the majority of western made cinema where everyone is speaking the same foreign language, they tend towards having them all speak english with either accents or not as the cast is able (See also: Most every german-centric world war 2 movie) but for movies where half the cast is speaking english and half the cast is speaking something else, they tend towards having the foreign language actually portrayed with subtitles. (Most &#8220;Asians in America&#8221; martial arts movies, &#8220;War&#8221; comes to mind right now just because I watched it last night.)</p>
<p>I can see the benefit to an &#8216;all or nothing&#8217; approach for language in film, it would be pretty jarring to cast anglophone actors alongside actors who speak another language and just have to say &#8220;Pretend both people are speaking the same language, but only one of them actually will because the other one doesn&#8217;t speak the language&#8221;</p>
<p>As regards the specific example of Luke and Jabba the Hutt, I&#8217;m also willing to consider the possibility that they&#8217;re doing the Obi-Wan Mind Trick dodge.  (This is where at Mos Eisley, Obi-wan does the &#8220;You don&#8217;t need to see his identification&#8221; bit, clearly the mind-trick loses some efficacy if the guard next to him actually hears him say that and the guard just parrot it back, so the only reasonable conclusion is that he&#8217;s saying it so we the viewers can go &#8216;ooh, he&#8217;s using mind powers and telling him what to say&#8217;)</p>
<p>So it might be the case for Luke that his ability to communicate with people when he might not be expected to know the language does actually, as was perhaps jokingly described above, gain it as a force power.  Though it is also the far more likely reason that yes, as a native of Tattoine, he just speaks Hutt because it was useful for a trader to be able to speak it.</p>
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		<title>By: lee</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/06/19/language-and-the-jedi-think-tank/#comment-9941</link>
		<dc:creator>lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=8325#comment-9941</guid>
		<description>@Wordsworth: Sorry, forgot about the &quot;fictional&quot; language part. Way to underthink it, Lee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Wordsworth: Sorry, forgot about the &#8220;fictional&#8221; language part. Way to underthink it, Lee.</p>
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		<title>By: Wordsworth</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/06/19/language-and-the-jedi-think-tank/#comment-9934</link>
		<dc:creator>Wordsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 09:00:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=8325#comment-9934</guid>
		<description>Hmm.  I think that films like PASSION OF THE CHRIST and APOCALYPTO don&#039;t quite fit what I&#039;m getting at.  In those films, the foreign language is used for authentication - to further enhance the sense of it being another culture.  Of course, there are elements of pretentiousness since the cast and crew are making a movie in their non-native language, but the actual outcome is no different than a foreign language film.

Meanwhile, films like VALKYRIE and BOY IN THE STRIPED PAJAMAS are accused of not sounding German enough.  Well, you can&#039;t have both worlds - either you force your audience to pretend that they&#039;re watching the entire movie from inside the TARDIS, with its multilingual translator, or you attempt to recreate authenticity.  Either can work well - and in many ways, taking a bit of linguistic liberty can make it easier for the audience to relate.  I suppose it&#039;s similar to the way modern music is used in STAR TREK, as you guys discussed in the podcast a few weeks back.

What I was interested in, though, was the use of fictional languages as the dominant tongue, particularly in sci-fi or fantasy.  I suppose very few people would attempt a film entirely in an alien language simply due to the fear of turning off the popcorn munchers who flock to the big blockbusters, but I&#039;d be very curious to see someone actually try it.  Writers, directors, etc. go to such lengths to establish a fully visceral and all-encompassing world, so why not extend that to language too?  Surely not every futuristic society or alternate universe or fantastical world has English as its common language.

That said, I don&#039;t like the idea of having EVERY movie covered in yellow and white words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm.  I think that films like PASSION OF THE CHRIST and APOCALYPTO don&#8217;t quite fit what I&#8217;m getting at.  In those films, the foreign language is used for authentication &#8211; to further enhance the sense of it being another culture.  Of course, there are elements of pretentiousness since the cast and crew are making a movie in their non-native language, but the actual outcome is no different than a foreign language film.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, films like VALKYRIE and BOY IN THE STRIPED PAJAMAS are accused of not sounding German enough.  Well, you can&#8217;t have both worlds &#8211; either you force your audience to pretend that they&#8217;re watching the entire movie from inside the TARDIS, with its multilingual translator, or you attempt to recreate authenticity.  Either can work well &#8211; and in many ways, taking a bit of linguistic liberty can make it easier for the audience to relate.  I suppose it&#8217;s similar to the way modern music is used in STAR TREK, as you guys discussed in the podcast a few weeks back.</p>
<p>What I was interested in, though, was the use of fictional languages as the dominant tongue, particularly in sci-fi or fantasy.  I suppose very few people would attempt a film entirely in an alien language simply due to the fear of turning off the popcorn munchers who flock to the big blockbusters, but I&#8217;d be very curious to see someone actually try it.  Writers, directors, etc. go to such lengths to establish a fully visceral and all-encompassing world, so why not extend that to language too?  Surely not every futuristic society or alternate universe or fantastical world has English as its common language.</p>
<p>That said, I don&#8217;t like the idea of having EVERY movie covered in yellow and white words.</p>
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		<title>By: RageTreb</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/06/19/language-and-the-jedi-think-tank/#comment-9933</link>
		<dc:creator>RageTreb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 06:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=8325#comment-9933</guid>
		<description>Two important notes:

1. The Hutt&#039;s language is called Huttese and is the planet Tatooine&#039;s dominant language.
2. Certain races are unable to speak Galactic Basic. For example, Wookies and Jawas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two important notes:</p>
<p>1. The Hutt&#8217;s language is called Huttese and is the planet Tatooine&#8217;s dominant language.<br />
2. Certain races are unable to speak Galactic Basic. For example, Wookies and Jawas.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
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