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	<title>Comments on: The Bromantic Gaze</title>
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	<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/01/05/the-bromantic-gaze/</link>
	<description>Overthinking It subjects the popular culture to a level of scrutiny it probably doesn&#039;t deserve.</description>
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		<title>By: coffee buzz</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/01/05/the-bromantic-gaze/#comment-4372</link>
		<dc:creator>coffee buzz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 03:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=3950#comment-4372</guid>
		<description>I was so happy that MTV thought to make such a bromantic show, it brought a little tear to my eye...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was so happy that MTV thought to make such a bromantic show, it brought a little tear to my eye&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Gab</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/01/05/the-bromantic-gaze/#comment-4336</link>
		<dc:creator>Gab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 05:56:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=3950#comment-4336</guid>
		<description>Wrather:  You&#039;re talking about _The Symposium_, aye?  Diotima&#039;s Ladder?  Because, if I remember correctly (and I read this over four years ago, so I may be wrong), the relationship expressed there, in its purest and best (and thus &quot;Platonic&quot; in the &quot;form&quot; sense), the highest prong on her ladder, is not sexual, but intellectual and implicitly spiritual- if the relationship is in the physical realm, it is not as Good, for true love results in ideas, not physical sensation.  Thus, love between a man and a woman can never reach that highest plane, for it cannot avoid the physical aspect.  As such, love between men is better.  (We talked a lot in my class about procreation of species versus ideas...  Good times, those were.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wrather:  You&#8217;re talking about _The Symposium_, aye?  Diotima&#8217;s Ladder?  Because, if I remember correctly (and I read this over four years ago, so I may be wrong), the relationship expressed there, in its purest and best (and thus &#8220;Platonic&#8221; in the &#8220;form&#8221; sense), the highest prong on her ladder, is not sexual, but intellectual and implicitly spiritual- if the relationship is in the physical realm, it is not as Good, for true love results in ideas, not physical sensation.  Thus, love between a man and a woman can never reach that highest plane, for it cannot avoid the physical aspect.  As such, love between men is better.  (We talked a lot in my class about procreation of species versus ideas&#8230;  Good times, those were.)</p>
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		<title>By: Darin</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/01/05/the-bromantic-gaze/#comment-4329</link>
		<dc:creator>Darin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 00:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=3950#comment-4329</guid>
		<description>@Sheely - &#039;misoguyny&#039; as concept and in this context would have to be the bromantics exclusiong of the normal guy. 
I don&#039;t imagine misoguyny will enter the mainstream lexicon. 

The normal guy has some combination of male and female friends and possible a female friend.  You were right that the bromantics feel a certain way toward guys.

 &quot;Therefore if a man sacrifices his homosocial friendships in favor of a romantic relationship with a woman, he will be left in the lurch when she inevitably abandons, betrays, or tries to change (”pussywhip”) him.&quot;

 When a small subset of gays make hostile comments about the &#039;breeders&#039; (hetersexual couples), the majority find it odd.  When a  subset of males have a bromance and disregard the rest of the guys as spineless, derogatory remarks would be a form of misoguyny.  (My use of it in a sentence.)

On one hand, this type of behavior seems so odd and unique.  But, on the other hand, groups who want to be identified a certain way will do whatever they can to separate themselves from another with language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Sheely &#8211; &#8216;misoguyny&#8217; as concept and in this context would have to be the bromantics exclusiong of the normal guy.<br />
I don&#8217;t imagine misoguyny will enter the mainstream lexicon. </p>
<p>The normal guy has some combination of male and female friends and possible a female friend.  You were right that the bromantics feel a certain way toward guys.</p>
<p> &#8220;Therefore if a man sacrifices his homosocial friendships in favor of a romantic relationship with a woman, he will be left in the lurch when she inevitably abandons, betrays, or tries to change (”pussywhip”) him.&#8221;</p>
<p> When a small subset of gays make hostile comments about the &#8216;breeders&#8217; (hetersexual couples), the majority find it odd.  When a  subset of males have a bromance and disregard the rest of the guys as spineless, derogatory remarks would be a form of misoguyny.  (My use of it in a sentence.)</p>
<p>On one hand, this type of behavior seems so odd and unique.  But, on the other hand, groups who want to be identified a certain way will do whatever they can to separate themselves from another with language.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Wrather</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/01/05/the-bromantic-gaze/#comment-4327</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Wrather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=3950#comment-4327</guid>
		<description>&quot;...male bonds are permanent, deep, and premised on mutual understanding and respect, whereas male-female bonds are capricious, shallow, and ultimately unfulfilling.&quot;

Contemplating this today, I was led to think about the relationship between Plato&#039;s forms and their real-world instances.

Plato contended that the forms are permanent, unchanging, and singular and thus better than regular things in the world which are transient, mutable, and multiple.

(Therefore, FWIW, philosophy, which is second-order contemplation of the forms, is superior to art, which is just another layer of mimesis.)

Aside from Sheely&#039;s argument that the concept of bromance is socially anti-progressive, I&#039;d add the observation that the concept involves a sneaky transposition that the linguistic derivation of (homosocial) &quot;bromance&quot; from (proably heterosexual) &quot;romance&quot; masks: bromance is posited as the good original of which romance is a less good copy.

Again FWIW, this idea is also as old as Plato -- really, the only social innovation here seems to be the catchy title -- hanging around drinking in symposia and having intercrural sex (look it up) with younger dudes was a much better thing to be doing than going home to your wife, who was pretty much just a baby machine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;male bonds are permanent, deep, and premised on mutual understanding and respect, whereas male-female bonds are capricious, shallow, and ultimately unfulfilling.&#8221;</p>
<p>Contemplating this today, I was led to think about the relationship between Plato&#8217;s forms and their real-world instances.</p>
<p>Plato contended that the forms are permanent, unchanging, and singular and thus better than regular things in the world which are transient, mutable, and multiple.</p>
<p>(Therefore, FWIW, philosophy, which is second-order contemplation of the forms, is superior to art, which is just another layer of mimesis.)</p>
<p>Aside from Sheely&#8217;s argument that the concept of bromance is socially anti-progressive, I&#8217;d add the observation that the concept involves a sneaky transposition that the linguistic derivation of (homosocial) &#8220;bromance&#8221; from (proably heterosexual) &#8220;romance&#8221; masks: bromance is posited as the good original of which romance is a less good copy.</p>
<p>Again FWIW, this idea is also as old as Plato &#8212; really, the only social innovation here seems to be the catchy title &#8212; hanging around drinking in symposia and having intercrural sex (look it up) with younger dudes was a much better thing to be doing than going home to your wife, who was pretty much just a baby machine.</p>
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		<title>By: Gab</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/01/05/the-bromantic-gaze/#comment-4326</link>
		<dc:creator>Gab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=3950#comment-4326</guid>
		<description>Sheely: I must report dutily and honestly that no, I have never watched _The Wire_.  Why, is it good or something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sheely: I must report dutily and honestly that no, I have never watched _The Wire_.  Why, is it good or something?</p>
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		<title>By: sheely</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/01/05/the-bromantic-gaze/#comment-4316</link>
		<dc:creator>sheely</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=3950#comment-4316</guid>
		<description>@Darin- So would &quot;misoguyny&quot; be used to describe a dislike for bro-havior? Could you use it in a sentence?

@Casey- I also noticed that: especially because all of the dudes keep saying things like &quot;Brody totally lives the sweetest lifestyle right now.  While I&#039;m sure that he&#039;d be doing just fine if he hadn&#039;t been on The Hills, I&#039;m sure most of these guys wouldn&#039;t even know who he is, and he certainly wouldn&#039;t be hosting this show.  

What is also interesting about the role that LC plays in the show, is that it is never a good thing when her name comes up. In the first episode, Michael mentions her when he is quitting the show and in this episode (SPOILER ALERT) the frat president  mentions her when he is having is one-on-one with Brody.  In both instances, Brody appears pretty peeved that she has been mentioned, and in the latter case, it definitely leads to the frat president&#039;s elimination.  I think LC is making an appearance in next week&#039;s episode, so it could be interesting.  

@Gab- You&#039;re not missing much by skipping the &quot;reality&quot; dating  genre altogether- the only ones that are even kind of worth the time are the first Flavor of Love and both seasons of  Rock of Love, both of which are carried by the strength of the stars personalities and a few pretty interesting contestants.  But then again, I can also think of many many better things that you could do with your TV viewing time.  For instance, have you ever watched the Wire?

@ Gab &amp; Lee-The hooding indeed was a pretty weird choice on the part of the producers- in the episode, it was only on screen very briefly, but the image capture that Wrather did for the carousel really draws out the parallels to Abu Ghraib.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Darin- So would &#8220;misoguyny&#8221; be used to describe a dislike for bro-havior? Could you use it in a sentence?</p>
<p>@Casey- I also noticed that: especially because all of the dudes keep saying things like &#8220;Brody totally lives the sweetest lifestyle right now.  While I&#8217;m sure that he&#8217;d be doing just fine if he hadn&#8217;t been on The Hills, I&#8217;m sure most of these guys wouldn&#8217;t even know who he is, and he certainly wouldn&#8217;t be hosting this show.  </p>
<p>What is also interesting about the role that LC plays in the show, is that it is never a good thing when her name comes up. In the first episode, Michael mentions her when he is quitting the show and in this episode (SPOILER ALERT) the frat president  mentions her when he is having is one-on-one with Brody.  In both instances, Brody appears pretty peeved that she has been mentioned, and in the latter case, it definitely leads to the frat president&#8217;s elimination.  I think LC is making an appearance in next week&#8217;s episode, so it could be interesting.  </p>
<p>@Gab- You&#8217;re not missing much by skipping the &#8220;reality&#8221; dating  genre altogether- the only ones that are even kind of worth the time are the first Flavor of Love and both seasons of  Rock of Love, both of which are carried by the strength of the stars personalities and a few pretty interesting contestants.  But then again, I can also think of many many better things that you could do with your TV viewing time.  For instance, have you ever watched the Wire?</p>
<p>@ Gab &amp; Lee-The hooding indeed was a pretty weird choice on the part of the producers- in the episode, it was only on screen very briefly, but the image capture that Wrather did for the carousel really draws out the parallels to Abu Ghraib.</p>
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		<title>By: Gab</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/01/05/the-bromantic-gaze/#comment-4307</link>
		<dc:creator>Gab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=3950#comment-4307</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t watched ANY of the reality shows brought up in this post or in the comments, save for some of _The Real World_ (because I don&#039;t see how anyone participating in the &quot;romance&quot; ones could ever be 100% sincere, whether they be the central figure or a person vying for their affection; and the idea of someone complaining on camera and getting famous for it irks me, too)(yeah, I&#039;m a pretentious asshole, so sue me), so my actual knowledge is limited.  However, I also kept wondering how this compares to the Paris Hilton show, and I&#039;ll conjecture that any &quot;lesbian&quot; vibes are pretty non-existent in Paris&#039; show due to the double-standards of society.  Or if they do exist, it isn&#039;t portrayed as a &quot;bad&quot; thing with Paris.  I&#039;ve expressed myself on this particular issue before, though, so I&#039;ll leave it there.

Oh, and yes, I also was weirded out by the hooded dudes, and for the same reason, Lee.  Was that on purpose?  After all, much of the violence at Abu Ghraib was of a highly sexualized nature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t watched ANY of the reality shows brought up in this post or in the comments, save for some of _The Real World_ (because I don&#8217;t see how anyone participating in the &#8220;romance&#8221; ones could ever be 100% sincere, whether they be the central figure or a person vying for their affection; and the idea of someone complaining on camera and getting famous for it irks me, too)(yeah, I&#8217;m a pretentious asshole, so sue me), so my actual knowledge is limited.  However, I also kept wondering how this compares to the Paris Hilton show, and I&#8217;ll conjecture that any &#8220;lesbian&#8221; vibes are pretty non-existent in Paris&#8217; show due to the double-standards of society.  Or if they do exist, it isn&#8217;t portrayed as a &#8220;bad&#8221; thing with Paris.  I&#8217;ve expressed myself on this particular issue before, though, so I&#8217;ll leave it there.</p>
<p>Oh, and yes, I also was weirded out by the hooded dudes, and for the same reason, Lee.  Was that on purpose?  After all, much of the violence at Abu Ghraib was of a highly sexualized nature.</p>
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		<title>By: Casey</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/01/05/the-bromantic-gaze/#comment-4304</link>
		<dc:creator>Casey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 05:54:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=3950#comment-4304</guid>
		<description>Does anyone else think it&#039;s odd that what really gave Brody his celebrity is really his friendship with Lauren Conrad (a girl) and that his show is all about the boys? Somehow I feel this is worth exploring...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone else think it&#8217;s odd that what really gave Brody his celebrity is really his friendship with Lauren Conrad (a girl) and that his show is all about the boys? Somehow I feel this is worth exploring&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: mlawski</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/01/05/the-bromantic-gaze/#comment-4302</link>
		<dc:creator>mlawski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 03:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=3950#comment-4302</guid>
		<description>Sorry, found another one, via ST: DS9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyqN1sucMzY&amp;feature=related

Yay</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, found another one, via ST: DS9</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyqN1sucMzY&amp;feature=related" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyqN1sucMzY&amp;feature=related</a></p>
<p>Yay</p>
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		<title>By: lee</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/01/05/the-bromantic-gaze/#comment-4300</link>
		<dc:creator>lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 00:08:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=3950#comment-4300</guid>
		<description>The picture of the guys in black hoods was pretty disturbing. Anyone else reminded of Abu Ghraib?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The picture of the guys in black hoods was pretty disturbing. Anyone else reminded of Abu Ghraib?</p>
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