Comments on: The Philosophy of Batman: Literary Theory Edition http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/12/the-philosophy-of-batman-literary-theory-edition/ Overthinking It subjects the popular culture to a level of scrutiny it probably doesn't deserve. Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:30:41 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: patrick http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/12/the-philosophy-of-batman-literary-theory-edition/#comment-12099 patrick Tue, 08 Sep 2009 09:38:04 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=857#comment-12099 Rewg. I LOVED the Joker from the moment he made the pencil "disappear" and only REALLY noticed Heath beneath the make-up when he has "a feeling we're destined to do this forever" and I cry a little each time. As for the 5 dead, my issue is with the "2 of them cops", (I count 3) my theory: 1. Wuertz (First kill, implied.We cut to the sonar tv board) 2. The bartender (?) 3. Maroni's Driver (FACT: he "spares" Maroni then kills the driver) 4. cop guarding the Gordon's #1 5. cop guarding the Gordon's #2 Its theoretical that Maroni died, but I'd swear Barbara says there are 2 guards whom Ramirez was GOING to call off but couldn't since Dent knocks her out immediately after the phone call. We KNOW factually that Wuertz, the bartender and Maroni's driver were all attributed to Dent/Batman depending on the Commissioner's/public viewpoint, we're @ a loss for the second cop and the 3rd victim, correct? Rewg.

I LOVED the Joker from the moment he made the pencil “disappear” and only REALLY noticed Heath beneath the make-up when he has “a feeling we’re destined to do this forever” and I cry a little each time.

As for the 5 dead, my issue is with the “2 of them cops”, (I count 3) my theory:

1. Wuertz (First kill, implied.We cut to the sonar tv board)
2. The bartender (?)
3. Maroni’s Driver (FACT: he “spares” Maroni then kills the driver)
4. cop guarding the Gordon’s #1
5. cop guarding the Gordon’s #2

Its theoretical that Maroni died, but I’d swear Barbara says there are 2 guards whom Ramirez was GOING to call off but couldn’t since Dent knocks her out immediately after the phone call. We KNOW factually that Wuertz, the bartender and Maroni’s driver were all attributed to Dent/Batman depending on the Commissioner’s/public viewpoint, we’re @ a loss for the second cop and the 3rd victim, correct?

]]> By: Batman: The Dark Knight « Thoughts about thinking http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/12/the-philosophy-of-batman-literary-theory-edition/#comment-5373 Batman: The Dark Knight « Thoughts about thinking Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:39:17 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=857#comment-5373 [...] (thinking) (batman, film, joker, kieth ledger, literary theory) I really enjoyed a discussion of the Dark Knight at overthinkingit.com about a literary theory analysis of the film.  There is a really great [...] [...] (thinking) (batman, film, joker, kieth ledger, literary theory) I really enjoyed a discussion of the Dark Knight at overthinkingit.com about a literary theory analysis of the film.  There is a really great [...]

]]> By: The Dark Knight Returns (on DVD) | Overthinking It http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/12/the-philosophy-of-batman-literary-theory-edition/#comment-3143 The Dark Knight Returns (on DVD) | Overthinking It Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:11:26 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=857#comment-3143 [...] Literary Theory Edition [...] [...] Literary Theory Edition [...]

]]> By: rewg http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/12/the-philosophy-of-batman-literary-theory-edition/#comment-2339 rewg Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:30:26 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=857#comment-2339 Wow, great article. You really brought together a lot of ideas about the movie and how the story is told. From what I've seen so far, Chris Nolan has a unique way of playing with the audience's emotions. A lot of movies play with fear or suspense a bit, and some cause a certain character or ideal to grow on you throughout the movie, but Chris Nolan's movies, and TDK in particular, are a carefully planned emotional/psychological rollercoaster. It's like he can guess the impact each moment of the movie has on the viewer, and then incorporates that into the next bit. For instance, one of my favorite effects of the movie, and I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on this, was getting the audience all wrapped up in the Joker character, only to prove him wrong in the boat scene. The Joker seems so fearless and free, and we love him for it, we start to believe that he must really have some great wisdom to impart... (I imagine everyone on this sight was a sucker for his philosophizing, at least a little bit) and of course we wanted to know more about him, get into his character, even though he lied to us we cared about him... Then just as he's about to show us the darkness of the human soul, his test subjects let us all down. So what does he do? He tries to blow up the ships anyway. Suddenly he's like a child overturning the game-board before he can "officially" lose at Stratego, (even though he already made the game rules to include blowing up both ships, we don't want him to do it, and it surely doesn't seem fair- yet another twist, but I digress) and we are sitting in the theater almost ashamed, thinking, "did I really side with this guy?" and still wondering who we want to believe. And the sentiment is reinforced by the upside-down camera effect- putting us in sympathy with each of the characters whenever he is in the spotlight. At least that's how I felt during that scene- like I was right there with the Joker shuffling off that silly faith in humanity when suddenly I was smacked upside the head with... gasp... proof of something good in people. But I think it's more than just a "ray of light" in the plot as some have said. It's like Chris Nolan knows that the audience will love whoever the movie wants us to love, and he's mocking us for it. Now you can say people always like that bad guy, but that's not true. Did you love the bad guy in Blue Velvet? David Lynch didn't want you to. But you liked Alex in Clockwork Orange? Of course, Stanley Kubrick filmed it that way. Chris Nolan wants you to love the Joker just until he's ready to drop the trap door out from under you, and then he leaves you hanging, not knowing whose side you're on, or which side is better. Wow, great article. You really brought together a lot of ideas about the movie and how the story is told. From what I’ve seen so far, Chris Nolan has a unique way of playing with the audience’s emotions. A lot of movies play with fear or suspense a bit, and some cause a certain character or ideal to grow on you throughout the movie, but Chris Nolan’s movies, and TDK in particular, are a carefully planned emotional/psychological rollercoaster. It’s like he can guess the impact each moment of the movie has on the viewer, and then incorporates that into the next bit. For instance, one of my favorite effects of the movie, and I’d love to hear anyone else’s thoughts on this, was getting the audience all wrapped up in the Joker character, only to prove him wrong in the boat scene. The Joker seems so fearless and free, and we love him for it, we start to believe that he must really have some great wisdom to impart… (I imagine everyone on this sight was a sucker for his philosophizing, at least a little bit) and of course we wanted to know more about him, get into his character, even though he lied to us we cared about him… Then just as he’s about to show us the darkness of the human soul, his test subjects let us all down. So what does he do? He tries to blow up the ships anyway. Suddenly he’s like a child overturning the game-board before he can “officially” lose at Stratego, (even though he already made the game rules to include blowing up both ships, we don’t want him to do it, and it surely doesn’t seem fair- yet another twist, but I digress) and we are sitting in the theater almost ashamed, thinking, “did I really side with this guy?” and still wondering who we want to believe. And the sentiment is reinforced by the upside-down camera effect- putting us in sympathy with each of the characters whenever he is in the spotlight. At least that’s how I felt during that scene- like I was right there with the Joker shuffling off that silly faith in humanity when suddenly I was smacked upside the head with… gasp… proof of something good in people. But I think it’s more than just a “ray of light” in the plot as some have said. It’s like Chris Nolan knows that the audience will love whoever the movie wants us to love, and he’s mocking us for it. Now you can say people always like that bad guy, but that’s not true. Did you love the bad guy in Blue Velvet? David Lynch didn’t want you to. But you liked Alex in Clockwork Orange? Of course, Stanley Kubrick filmed it that way. Chris Nolan wants you to love the Joker just until he’s ready to drop the trap door out from under you, and then he leaves you hanging, not knowing whose side you’re on, or which side is better.

]]> By: josh http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/12/the-philosophy-of-batman-literary-theory-edition/#comment-1987 josh Wed, 08 Oct 2008 16:55:00 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=857#comment-1987 awesome post. that was incredibly fun to read. awesome post. that was incredibly fun to read.

]]> By: The Philosophy of Batman: Political Sociology Edition | Overthinking It http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/12/the-philosophy-of-batman-literary-theory-edition/#comment-1656 The Philosophy of Batman: Political Sociology Edition | Overthinking It Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:40:20 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=857#comment-1656 [...] post in the Philosophy of Batman series. When you’re done, check out Part I, Part II, and Part IV [...] [...] post in the Philosophy of Batman series. When you’re done, check out Part I, Part II, and Part IV [...]

]]> By: The Philosophy of Batman | Overthinking It http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/12/the-philosophy-of-batman-literary-theory-edition/#comment-1655 The Philosophy of Batman | Overthinking It Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:37:12 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=857#comment-1655 [...] post in the Philosophy of Batman series. When you’re done, check out Part II, Part III, and Part IV [...] [...] post in the Philosophy of Batman series. When you’re done, check out Part II, Part III, and Part IV [...]

]]> By: Quizzes, Batman and Fight Club « The Ego Chronicles http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/12/the-philosophy-of-batman-literary-theory-edition/#comment-1401 Quizzes, Batman and Fight Club « The Ego Chronicles Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:06:12 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=857#comment-1401 [...] The Philosophy of Batman [...] [...] The Philosophy of Batman [...]

]]> By: Adrian http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/12/the-philosophy-of-batman-literary-theory-edition/#comment-1171 Adrian Sat, 16 Aug 2008 05:11:07 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=857#comment-1171 I dunno, but you could always try to contact Jonathan Nolan instead. Anyone of the three writers should know the answer, and the other two are probably easier to get in touch with (I bet Christopher Nolan is lighting cigars with dollar bills in a golden tower right now). I dunno, but you could always try to contact Jonathan Nolan instead. Anyone of the three writers should know the answer, and the other two are probably easier to get in touch with (I bet Christopher Nolan is lighting cigars with dollar bills in a golden tower right now).

]]> By: Gab http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/12/the-philosophy-of-batman-literary-theory-edition/#comment-1154 Gab Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:45:03 +0000 http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=857#comment-1154 No, I think the cop-hospital theory is pretty sensical. Like I said, there's no telling who pulled the trigger- and that's assuming the body didn't get crispified in the fire and there was even a bullet to retrieve from it. I guess I just would like the official answer, yeah, from Nolan. And while I don't think IMDB is the be-all-end-all, it's always good for a quick answer. Like Wiki! Thinking it was Ramirez is a tidbit harder for me to swallow, for she is the one that calls Gordon's family. But they never show his wife tell him as such before he says there are five dead, two of them cops. I do think it's safe to presume he'd find out within a few minutes of his little film-ending-monologue, and that she'd so get her ass fired. And even if his wife didn't tell him specifically that Ramirez had baited them, he still is smart enough to figure out why she would have "gone missing" at that time: because she had something to do with Rachel's death; so it would be a matter of time before he figured out just what that connection happened to be. Bah. My point is this is frustrating me and lots of theories sound valid and make sense and stuff, but I won't really stop twitching about it until I get word from Nolan. Any ideas as to how I can contact him?????? No, I think the cop-hospital theory is pretty sensical. Like I said, there’s no telling who pulled the trigger- and that’s assuming the body didn’t get crispified in the fire and there was even a bullet to retrieve from it. I guess I just would like the official answer, yeah, from Nolan. And while I don’t think IMDB is the be-all-end-all, it’s always good for a quick answer. Like Wiki! Thinking it was Ramirez is a tidbit harder for me to swallow, for she is the one that calls Gordon’s family. But they never show his wife tell him as such before he says there are five dead, two of them cops. I do think it’s safe to presume he’d find out within a few minutes of his little film-ending-monologue, and that she’d so get her ass fired. And even if his wife didn’t tell him specifically that Ramirez had baited them, he still is smart enough to figure out why she would have “gone missing” at that time: because she had something to do with Rachel’s death; so it would be a matter of time before he figured out just what that connection happened to be.

Bah. My point is this is frustrating me and lots of theories sound valid and make sense and stuff, but I won’t really stop twitching about it until I get word from Nolan. Any ideas as to how I can contact him??????

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