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	<title>Comments on: Controversy Update: Disney Edition</title>
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	<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/06/22/controversy-update-disney-edition/</link>
	<description>Overthinking It subjects the popular culture to a level of scrutiny it probably doesn&#039;t deserve.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 07:16:09 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>By: CyanideSmoker</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/06/22/controversy-update-disney-edition/#comment-9024</link>
		<dc:creator>CyanideSmoker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 17:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=394#comment-9024</guid>
		<description>This is one of the DUMBEST controversies I&#039;ve ever heard! Basically, Disney is trying to make a Black Princess but whatever mother community is mentioned in the post is giving them flack? Yeah, THATS gonna make Disney want to explore African-American culture in there movies more.
As for some of the complaints? So what if Randy Newman is the Musical composer? He&#039;s been doing work with Disney for YEARS! Just because the character of the cartoon aint his color, he shouldnt be allowed to work on it? Also, how many Disney Princesses are ACTUALLY 3-Dimensional characters? Basically, these people are complaining to make the character (Which they have no creative stake in whatsoever)a more &#039;High-Class&#039; character?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is one of the DUMBEST controversies I&#8217;ve ever heard! Basically, Disney is trying to make a Black Princess but whatever mother community is mentioned in the post is giving them flack? Yeah, THATS gonna make Disney want to explore African-American culture in there movies more.<br />
As for some of the complaints? So what if Randy Newman is the Musical composer? He&#8217;s been doing work with Disney for YEARS! Just because the character of the cartoon aint his color, he shouldnt be allowed to work on it? Also, how many Disney Princesses are ACTUALLY 3-Dimensional characters? Basically, these people are complaining to make the character (Which they have no creative stake in whatsoever)a more &#8216;High-Class&#8217; character?</p>
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		<title>By: tiana</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/06/22/controversy-update-disney-edition/#comment-4342</link>
		<dc:creator>tiana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 12:02:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=394#comment-4342</guid>
		<description>My major problem here is that now a billion babies will have my name. I really liked having a lesser used name. this princess had better be friggin awesome. she&#039;s representing my name and my race.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My major problem here is that now a billion babies will have my name. I really liked having a lesser used name. this princess had better be friggin awesome. she&#8217;s representing my name and my race.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: B</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/06/22/controversy-update-disney-edition/#comment-613</link>
		<dc:creator>B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 01:24:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=394#comment-613</guid>
		<description>By the way, as a side note I will offer up that I believe Fievel Goes West has the singular most hilarious scene in any animated movie.  Ever.  And I stand by that statement.  I am, of course, refering to the one where the dog tries to teach the cat how to do the &quot;laaazzzy EYE&quot; and all hell breaks loose.

I&#039;m chuckling about it even now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, as a side note I will offer up that I believe Fievel Goes West has the singular most hilarious scene in any animated movie.  Ever.  And I stand by that statement.  I am, of course, refering to the one where the dog tries to teach the cat how to do the &#8220;laaazzzy EYE&#8221; and all hell breaks loose.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m chuckling about it even now.</p>
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		<title>By: fenzel</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/06/22/controversy-update-disney-edition/#comment-572</link>
		<dc:creator>fenzel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=394#comment-572</guid>
		<description>The main point there is that the ethnicity of a given character is much more likely to be a production decision than a writing decision.

And when it&#039;s a writing decision, if it doesn&#039;t go the way you like, and you&#039;re a producer, just tell them to change it, and they will, no matter who they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The main point there is that the ethnicity of a given character is much more likely to be a production decision than a writing decision.</p>
<p>And when it&#8217;s a writing decision, if it doesn&#8217;t go the way you like, and you&#8217;re a producer, just tell them to change it, and they will, no matter who they are.</p>
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		<title>By: Stokes</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/06/22/controversy-update-disney-edition/#comment-563</link>
		<dc:creator>Stokes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:46:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=394#comment-563</guid>
		<description>While the &lt;em&gt;best&lt;/em&gt; reasons to hire more minority writers may not have to do with the broad subject matter of the art that is eventually produced, it would be an extremely effective way to redress the balance .  Or rather to create a balance that was never there in the first place.  The odds that a randomly selected character in a book or movie is going to turn out to be a white hetero male are way higher than they should be.  (Women make up slightly more than half of the population.  Each of the serious contenders for the Best Picture Oscar last year had precisely one legitimate female character.)

Re: &quot;if you want to put an Asian face on a character, just have that character played by an Asian actor.&quot;
First of all, that doesn&#039;t apply to the male/female thing at all:  those decisions are made at the level of the script.  Second, if it does work for race - which is arguable - that just means that there should be more casting directors of [insert ethnic background].  Is that because they have the magical ability to recognize talents of all shapes and colors?  No, it&#039;s because they are less likely to commit the unconscious racism of assuming that the character should be a straight white man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While the <em>best</em> reasons to hire more minority writers may not have to do with the broad subject matter of the art that is eventually produced, it would be an extremely effective way to redress the balance .  Or rather to create a balance that was never there in the first place.  The odds that a randomly selected character in a book or movie is going to turn out to be a white hetero male are way higher than they should be.  (Women make up slightly more than half of the population.  Each of the serious contenders for the Best Picture Oscar last year had precisely one legitimate female character.)</p>
<p>Re: &#8220;if you want to put an Asian face on a character, just have that character played by an Asian actor.&#8221;<br />
First of all, that doesn&#8217;t apply to the male/female thing at all:  those decisions are made at the level of the script.  Second, if it does work for race &#8211; which is arguable &#8211; that just means that there should be more casting directors of [insert ethnic background].  Is that because they have the magical ability to recognize talents of all shapes and colors?  No, it&#8217;s because they are less likely to commit the unconscious racism of assuming that the character should be a straight white man.</p>
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		<title>By: wrather</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/06/22/controversy-update-disney-edition/#comment-562</link>
		<dc:creator>wrather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=394#comment-562</guid>
		<description>I think we&#039;ve lost sight of the main point, which is that there are no cats in America.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we&#8217;ve lost sight of the main point, which is that there are no cats in America.</p>
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		<title>By: &#8220;Was it sexual?&#8221; &#8220;Yes. Overwhelmingly so. And Horrible.&#8221; &#124; Overthinking It</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/06/22/controversy-update-disney-edition/#comment-560</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;Was it sexual?&#8221; &#8220;Yes. Overwhelmingly so. And Horrible.&#8221; &#124; Overthinking It</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=394#comment-560</guid>
		<description>[...] Which if you don&#8217;t, by now you&#8217;ve probably already clicked through to one of our Disney Princess [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Which if you don&#8217;t, by now you&#8217;ve probably already clicked through to one of our Disney Princess [...]</p>
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		<title>By: fenzel</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/06/22/controversy-update-disney-edition/#comment-558</link>
		<dc:creator>fenzel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:44:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=394#comment-558</guid>
		<description>Also, there&#039;s a really cool story to be told here about how many of the classic &quot;white&quot; characters were invented by Jewish writers at a time when Jews were not considered very &quot;white&quot; at all -- the most notable I can think of off my head being the superhero and the blonde bombshell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, there&#8217;s a really cool story to be told here about how many of the classic &#8220;white&#8221; characters were invented by Jewish writers at a time when Jews were not considered very &#8220;white&#8221; at all &#8212; the most notable I can think of off my head being the superhero and the blonde bombshell.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: fenzel</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/06/22/controversy-update-disney-edition/#comment-557</link>
		<dc:creator>fenzel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=394#comment-557</guid>
		<description>Oh, goddammit. This is the second time today I&#039;ve written a long reply and clicked submit and the site has crashed before posting it.

I guess I&#039;ll try to reconstitute it:

Steel Magnolias
Sophie&#039;s Choice
Atonement
&quot;Before He Cheats&quot;
&quot;Total Eclipse of the Heart&quot;
&quot;It&#039;s All Coming Back to Me Now&quot;

All written by white dudes

&quot;Shoop Shoop&quot; from Waiting to Exhale 
How Stella Got Her Groove Back
&quot;Whatta Man&quot;

All written by black dudes

You can narrativize after the fact how you can tell these are all written by dudes, but it&#039;s very hard to tell ahead of time which are written by dudes and which are not (Would you be able to tell that &quot;Steel Magnolias&quot; is by a dude, but &quot;Fried Green Tomatoes&quot; is by a woman just by watching them? I doubt it.).

And in fact, that&#039;s all this exercise is -- narrativizing after the fact to try to find a neat explanation for something that is not nearly so neat and not nearly so explicable -- the creative process.

Race and gender are constructions, and thus not natural. Therefore, very little, if anything, proceeds from them &quot;naturally.&quot;

The whole misunderstanding is motivated by three essential problems

1. The naturalistic fallacy -- that matters such as where or in what circumstances someone is born is in itself normative. (Oh, they have an effect, but it does not have an inherent purpose, and it doesn&#039;t give rise to a coherent teleological system; that is exactly the sort of fiction that racial superiority theories look to create.)

2. What Naseer Taleb refers to as the &quot;Great Intellectual Fraud&quot; -- that is, the misapplications of Gassian notions of probability to human endeavors that are not governed by Gaussian distributions, but where in fact almost the whole of meaningful contribution comes from extreme outliers -- also known as the &quot;fat tail&quot; phenomenon.

(That is, Hollywood writers are such a small subsection of the population at large and individual successes outweigh the net effect of literally millions of attempts; therefore statistical predictions are meaningless. If you like Sci-Fi, think of it as the &quot;Mule effect&quot; from Isaac Asimov&#039;s _Foundation and Empire_ or I guess sort of related to the &quot;Butterfly Effect&quot; from that Ashton Kutcher movie.)

3. The illusions created by circles of readership that tend to align with self-identifying socioeconomic and ethnic groups. What appears to be cultural conditioning or an essential quality given to a group of artists that share certain specific perspectives and experience often has more to do with the specific other artists they are copying than with their identities in a demographic context.

A whole bunch of people who read a lot of Maxine Hong Kingston are going to have a lot in common with each other in their work as long as they&#039;re all copying Maxine Hong Kingston. Chances are they are from similar backgrounds, but it&#039;s not a causal correlation with their work itself, just with who they read.

In my previous post, I also listed a host of factors more influential than the social identity of the author in determining whether an effort to write a given character of a given ethnicity is going to be successful, including the insurmountable challenge of actually capturing an entire human being of any sort in writing, and especially the value of interpretation in collaborative art -- that, again, if you want to put an Asian face on a character, just have that character played by an Asian actor. You really need very little else.

Developing talent across ethnicities and genders is a very good thing both for art and for the business of art. It&#039;s actually quite necessary. But that has to do with maximizing fairness and opportunity -- not shutting out potential genius and resources from opportunities to make art -- and nothing to do with broad concerns of subject matter like we&#039;re discussing here.

We want there to be more women who make movies, more black people who make movies, because we know that they can make good _movies_, not because we know they can make good movies about women and black people.

I mean, if we just want to keep them around to make movies about themselves and their own perspective, that&#039;s not going to lead to any sort of meaningful advancement for anybody. That&#039;s just ghettoization. That&#039;s just more cultural isolation and preaching to the choir.

And I believe I ended my deleted post with:

&quot;Rick Rubin! For Christ&#039;s sake, Rick Rubin!&quot;

Although I&#039;ll end this one with,

&quot;Ernest Tidyman! For Christ&#039;s sake, Ernest Tidyman!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, goddammit. This is the second time today I&#8217;ve written a long reply and clicked submit and the site has crashed before posting it.</p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;ll try to reconstitute it:</p>
<p>Steel Magnolias<br />
Sophie&#8217;s Choice<br />
Atonement<br />
&#8220;Before He Cheats&#8221;<br />
&#8220;Total Eclipse of the Heart&#8221;<br />
&#8220;It&#8217;s All Coming Back to Me Now&#8221;</p>
<p>All written by white dudes</p>
<p>&#8220;Shoop Shoop&#8221; from Waiting to Exhale<br />
How Stella Got Her Groove Back<br />
&#8220;Whatta Man&#8221;</p>
<p>All written by black dudes</p>
<p>You can narrativize after the fact how you can tell these are all written by dudes, but it&#8217;s very hard to tell ahead of time which are written by dudes and which are not (Would you be able to tell that &#8220;Steel Magnolias&#8221; is by a dude, but &#8220;Fried Green Tomatoes&#8221; is by a woman just by watching them? I doubt it.).</p>
<p>And in fact, that&#8217;s all this exercise is &#8212; narrativizing after the fact to try to find a neat explanation for something that is not nearly so neat and not nearly so explicable &#8212; the creative process.</p>
<p>Race and gender are constructions, and thus not natural. Therefore, very little, if anything, proceeds from them &#8220;naturally.&#8221;</p>
<p>The whole misunderstanding is motivated by three essential problems</p>
<p>1. The naturalistic fallacy &#8212; that matters such as where or in what circumstances someone is born is in itself normative. (Oh, they have an effect, but it does not have an inherent purpose, and it doesn&#8217;t give rise to a coherent teleological system; that is exactly the sort of fiction that racial superiority theories look to create.)</p>
<p>2. What Naseer Taleb refers to as the &#8220;Great Intellectual Fraud&#8221; &#8212; that is, the misapplications of Gassian notions of probability to human endeavors that are not governed by Gaussian distributions, but where in fact almost the whole of meaningful contribution comes from extreme outliers &#8212; also known as the &#8220;fat tail&#8221; phenomenon.</p>
<p>(That is, Hollywood writers are such a small subsection of the population at large and individual successes outweigh the net effect of literally millions of attempts; therefore statistical predictions are meaningless. If you like Sci-Fi, think of it as the &#8220;Mule effect&#8221; from Isaac Asimov&#8217;s _Foundation and Empire_ or I guess sort of related to the &#8220;Butterfly Effect&#8221; from that Ashton Kutcher movie.)</p>
<p>3. The illusions created by circles of readership that tend to align with self-identifying socioeconomic and ethnic groups. What appears to be cultural conditioning or an essential quality given to a group of artists that share certain specific perspectives and experience often has more to do with the specific other artists they are copying than with their identities in a demographic context.</p>
<p>A whole bunch of people who read a lot of Maxine Hong Kingston are going to have a lot in common with each other in their work as long as they&#8217;re all copying Maxine Hong Kingston. Chances are they are from similar backgrounds, but it&#8217;s not a causal correlation with their work itself, just with who they read.</p>
<p>In my previous post, I also listed a host of factors more influential than the social identity of the author in determining whether an effort to write a given character of a given ethnicity is going to be successful, including the insurmountable challenge of actually capturing an entire human being of any sort in writing, and especially the value of interpretation in collaborative art &#8212; that, again, if you want to put an Asian face on a character, just have that character played by an Asian actor. You really need very little else.</p>
<p>Developing talent across ethnicities and genders is a very good thing both for art and for the business of art. It&#8217;s actually quite necessary. But that has to do with maximizing fairness and opportunity &#8212; not shutting out potential genius and resources from opportunities to make art &#8212; and nothing to do with broad concerns of subject matter like we&#8217;re discussing here.</p>
<p>We want there to be more women who make movies, more black people who make movies, because we know that they can make good _movies_, not because we know they can make good movies about women and black people.</p>
<p>I mean, if we just want to keep them around to make movies about themselves and their own perspective, that&#8217;s not going to lead to any sort of meaningful advancement for anybody. That&#8217;s just ghettoization. That&#8217;s just more cultural isolation and preaching to the choir.</p>
<p>And I believe I ended my deleted post with:</p>
<p>&#8220;Rick Rubin! For Christ&#8217;s sake, Rick Rubin!&#8221;</p>
<p>Although I&#8217;ll end this one with,</p>
<p>&#8220;Ernest Tidyman! For Christ&#8217;s sake, Ernest Tidyman!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: mlawski</title>
		<link>http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/06/22/controversy-update-disney-edition/#comment-556</link>
		<dc:creator>mlawski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overthinkingit.com/?p=394#comment-556</guid>
		<description>Well, as my post tried to point out above, there&#039;s a middle ground between essentialist racism and whitewashing.  I&#039;m not saying that Tiana should be going around saying, &quot;Oh lawdy, chile&quot; while eating fried chicken.

But the idea that white, male, middle class American authors of a certain generation are able to write characters that are raceless, genderless, and without culture sounds impossible.  If a writing staff has all white, male, middle class American writers, the fact is that they are probably going to write characters that act and think like they do.  It&#039;s not that a piece of dialogue will &quot;sound white&quot; because it uses certain words or phrases; it&#039;s that these films will naturally concern certain themes and character archetypes that are important to people living in a certain place and time.  Sometimes those themes are timeless and transcend boundaries of race, ethnicity, gender, and so on.  Other times, these writers think they are being timeless but are clearly writing within a certain cultural context that may not speak to members of other groups.

As a white girl, I can&#039;t speak about the racial issues very well, but I can speak from the &quot;girl&quot; POV.  Only 11% of writers in Hollywood were women in 2005, and only 7% of directors.  Even if I didn&#039;t know these statistics, I&#039;d know just from watching movies that the film industry is run by men.  Just look at the Best Picture nominees from last year.  In some ways, pictures like &quot;No Country for Old Men&quot; and &quot;There Will Be Blood&quot; were timeless films that anyone could enjoy, but, from another point of view, they were movies by men, about men, and for men.

I&#039;m not saying the producers of those films should have made romantic comedies instead or made Anton Chigurh female.  But if there were more female writers, directors, producers, etc., there would likely be more movies that talked to people like my mother.  For all my dislike of Juno (long story), at least it had a different kind of voice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, as my post tried to point out above, there&#8217;s a middle ground between essentialist racism and whitewashing.  I&#8217;m not saying that Tiana should be going around saying, &#8220;Oh lawdy, chile&#8221; while eating fried chicken.</p>
<p>But the idea that white, male, middle class American authors of a certain generation are able to write characters that are raceless, genderless, and without culture sounds impossible.  If a writing staff has all white, male, middle class American writers, the fact is that they are probably going to write characters that act and think like they do.  It&#8217;s not that a piece of dialogue will &#8220;sound white&#8221; because it uses certain words or phrases; it&#8217;s that these films will naturally concern certain themes and character archetypes that are important to people living in a certain place and time.  Sometimes those themes are timeless and transcend boundaries of race, ethnicity, gender, and so on.  Other times, these writers think they are being timeless but are clearly writing within a certain cultural context that may not speak to members of other groups.</p>
<p>As a white girl, I can&#8217;t speak about the racial issues very well, but I can speak from the &#8220;girl&#8221; POV.  Only 11% of writers in Hollywood were women in 2005, and only 7% of directors.  Even if I didn&#8217;t know these statistics, I&#8217;d know just from watching movies that the film industry is run by men.  Just look at the Best Picture nominees from last year.  In some ways, pictures like &#8220;No Country for Old Men&#8221; and &#8220;There Will Be Blood&#8221; were timeless films that anyone could enjoy, but, from another point of view, they were movies by men, about men, and for men.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying the producers of those films should have made romantic comedies instead or made Anton Chigurh female.  But if there were more female writers, directors, producers, etc., there would likely be more movies that talked to people like my mother.  For all my dislike of Juno (long story), at least it had a different kind of voice.</p>
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